Test, HGH, Var cycle

[Tbagger]

After losing just over 100lbs last year, my goal this year is to get shredded. I'm currently sitting at 205lbs at approx. 17% bodyfat. I started TRT about 2 months ago and am currently taking 150mg/wk. I am also switching from Tesa/Ipa to HGH when my shipment comes in next month. I went in to my doc to get some bloodwork today and we started talking about my goals and optimization which lead to him writing me a script for a 6 week cycle of 10mg Anavar. So my current plan is to run a 6 week cycle of 6mg/wk Reta (my maintenance dose), 250mg/wk test-c, 4iu/day HGH, and 10mg/day Anavar. Then return to my normal cruise of 150mg test and maybe stay with 1-2iu HGH. This will be my first foray into AAS and was wondering if you guys had any opinions? I'm 42m and my labs are pretty spot on. I was going to ask in MESO but they are ruthless there and will pretty much just tell me I'm wasting my money on a weak cycle, push for increasing everything, and to throw tren in the mix lol.

 

[Mr. Blonde]

Sounds good to me. MESO can fuck off. It's your goals with your body. Don't worry about the knuckle dragging juice heads over there. Listen to the knuckle dragging juice heads over here.

Just start low dose with the hgh and titrate up. Expect some possible water retention while on it. With that low dose of oxandrolone (anavar) you won't even need NAC or Tudca for liver support. Plus, oxandrolone mainly goes through the kidneys. Just drink plenty of water. No booze. And make sure your diet is on point while doing gear. The nutrient partitioning is real. If you eat shit, you will look like it. If you eat right, you will look like it. Also lift and do your cardio.

Good luck yo!

 

[Tbagger]

Sounds good to me. MESO can fuck off. It's your goals with your body. Don't worry about the knuckle dragging juice heads over there. Listen to the knuckle dragging juice heads over here.

Just start low dose with the hgh and titrate up. Expect some possible water retention while on it. With that low dose of oxandrolone (anavar) you won't even need NAC or Tudca for liver support. Plus, oxandrolone mainly goes through the kidneys. Just drink plenty of water. No booze. And make sure your diet is on point while doing gear. The nutrient partitioning is real. If you eat shit, you will look like it. If you eat right, you will look like it. Also lift and do your cardio.

Good luck yo!

Thanks for the tips! Looks like I’m already on the right track so far. Just need a little adjustment here and there.

I’m planning on starting with 1iu then titrating up to 4 over about a month and am expecting a bit of water retention. If I get any of the sides like joint pain or numbness I’ll drop down to the highest level without sides.

I’m already taking NAC to support my glutathione cycle along with milk thistle and cod oil for liver support.

And I do a 10min run as my gym warmup before my 90min weight training 4-6 days a week and then take a 2 mile walk most evenings. I plan on adding some HIIT cardio on my off days but I have a hard time actually bringing myself to do it lol.

And lastly, my diet is fairly decent but I do need to clean it up a bit more these days. I got a little sloppy with it since hitting maintenance about 6 weeks ago. Still maintaining my calories, but taking in a bit more sweets than I should. Definitely need to be more conscious of my water intake. It’s hard to get the full gallon in every day and I usually only manage around 70-90 oz including my protein 2 shakes.

 

[Calm Logic]

I went in to my doc to get some bloodwork today and we started talking about my goals and optimization which lead to him writing me a script for a 6 week cycle of 10mg Anavar.

When does this quack plan to retest your liver values, lipid values, etc?

The idea that low "clinical" doses like 10 mg are fine for a cycle is BS, as in bro science. It's just less damage, even if it doesn't show up on a lab test. Realistically, there is no way to monitor any immediate invisible damage like a decrease in endothelial function (as early as the first week on 10 mg) or a subclinical increase in arterial stiffness (which is possible within a 6-week cycle).

The damage is reversible, but you are basically taking out a high-interest loan on your cardiovascular health, to be paid back with aggressive recovery and perfect labs later. Just for temporary gains.

Some docs are even reluctant to prescribe TRT, even with just topical testosterone gel. So your doc is on the other end of the spectrum. A few years ago in Israel: "The Ministry of Health warns the public against the use of Dianabol and Anavar anabolic steroids."

Some recommend labs just for regular TRT:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Testosterone/s/IIvOCBE5KF

 

[Omxxl]

After losing just over 100lbs last year, my goal this year is to get shredded. I'm currently sitting at 205lbs at approx. 17% bodyfat. I started TRT about 2 months ago and am currently taking 150mg/wk. I am also switching from Tesa/Ipa to HGH when my shipment comes in next month. I went in to my doc to get some bloodwork today and we started talking about my goals and optimization which lead to him writing me a script for a 6 week cycle of 10mg Anavar. So my current plan is to run a 6 week cycle of 6mg/wk Reta (my maintenance dose), 250mg/wk test-c, 4iu/day HGH, and 10mg/day Anavar. Then return to my normal cruise of 150mg test and maybe stay with 1-2iu HGH. This will be my first foray into AAS and was wondering if you guys had any opinions? I'm 42m and my labs are pretty spot on. I was going to ask in MESO but they are ruthless there and will pretty much just tell me I'm wasting my money on a weak cycle, push for increasing everything, and to throw tren in the mix lol.

Friend, I find your approach very interesting, and you're going to see a lot of improvement.
What I don't understand is why you're going to lower your HGH dose to 1-2 units; I would maintain it. What I wouldn't do is start with 4 units right away. In my case, after 3 units, I experience carpal tunnel pain, swelling, and my blood sugar spikes.
I recommend that you measure your blood sugar and IGF-1 levels beforehand, if possible, increase the dose by 1 unit per month until you reach your limit where you experience side effects, and then lower it. I would maintain that dose for at least 6 months if it doesn't cause any problems.
Another important thing is your diet, since adding Anavar won't significantly reduce your calorie intake. In fact, I would maintain a normal calorie intake for proper body recomposition, or cycle weeks with a slight surplus followed by some weeks with a slight deficit.

 

[latviantower]

I’m running a lower dose hgh at 2 iu and I definitely noticed water retention. Dandelion root every morning will knock that out quickly.

 

[Calm Logic]

I’m already taking NAC to support my glutathione cycle along with milk thistle and cod oil for liver support.

Drinking black coffee is another option for liver support, as is the oral supplement TUDCA.

Very high amounts of NAC are used for Tylenol overdose, but that can increase hematocrit levels. For drug-induced liver injury with Anavar, I used both NAC and glutathione, as well as black coffee and TUDCA and some milk thistle. But they did not seem to help much since it took several months for my liver enzymes to be normal again.

 

[slick1]

Good for you Tbagger. Pay no attention to the negative remarks by AI know it all's, What they know best is Copy & Paste. Your body is extremely resilient and will correct for most anything you do to it that it don't like. If you trust your Doc, just let him do his job and ignore any naysayers who think they know more, when they actually don't know shit, especially about you, your goals, and the Dr's monitoring protocols. Sounds like a decent plan, keep an eye on your bloodwork, and rock on!😎

 

[Calm Logic]

Your body is extremely resilient and will correct for most anything you do to it that it don't like. If you trust your Doc, just let him do his job and ignore any naysayers who think they know more, when they actually don't know shit, especially about you, your goals, and the Dr's monitoring protocols. Sounds like a decent plan, keep an eye on your bloodwork, and rock on!😎

Another reason women outlive men. And probably a male doc too. Men take more risks in general. (Some docs who take risks in their own lives have undiagnosed bipolar disorder. I used to work at a rehab that specialized in docs addicted to alcohol or other drugs.)

People love excuses for their bad habits. So I know I'm not going to be popular in this subforum. But go to Meso and they will tell you to at least get a CT calcium score done with any significant history of obesity. Not to mention Lp(a), ApoB, NMR, and all the other fancy lipid bloodwork that is not usually ordered by a doc.

What we consider healthy and what Meso considers healthy are two very different things (just like they consider "skinny fat" to be anyone without abs). Meso wants labs to be elite level before wrecked with various compounds and their synergistic damage. Some guys there say no AAS until LDL is under 70. Even then to be proactive with statin use, ideally taking Repatha too. But they do that to rationalize what they know is harmful. So their view of harm reduction is somewhat bizarre compared to us taking GLPs and worried about relatively minor issues like endotoxins.

They are healthy on paper (labs) at Meso. But not enough cardiovascuar testing like imaging. Partly because any caring cardiologist would give a lecture from hell on AAS use, so they are literally afraid to go. Esp. since they already look like they are on steroids, not to mention some of their imaging results like LVH (left ventricular hypertrophy). And not wanting to mention AAS use, they sometimes feel compelled to lie about family history to get insurance to pay for heart imaging, etc.

As I have linked to before, some guys on Meso think just test is the way to go. The other compounds are just to look good for a competition. And some say HGH is overrated, so might as well just use tesa, which makes sense since most guys are never on the low end of IGF-1, compared to the prevalence of secondary hypogonadism from obesity, aging, etc.

 

[slick1]

And not wanting to mention AAS use, they sometimes feel compelled to lie about family history to get insurance to pay for heart imaging, etc.

Ahh yes, kind of like we lie to our doctors about our peptide and GLP1 use, yet they too, do wonders for our bloodwork and lab results.....On paper of course!

 

[Tbagger]

Friend, I find your approach very interesting, and you're going to see a lot of improvement.
What I don't understand is why you're going to lower your HGH dose to 1-2 units; I would maintain it. What I wouldn't do is start with 4 units right away. In my case, after 3 units, I experience carpal tunnel pain, swelling, and my blood sugar spikes.
I recommend that you measure your blood sugar and IGF-1 levels beforehand, if possible, increase the dose by 1 unit per month until you reach your limit where you experience side effects, and then lower it. I would maintain that dose for at least 6 months if it doesn't cause any problems.
Another important thing is your diet, since adding Anavar won't significantly reduce your calorie intake. In fact, I would maintain a normal calorie intake for proper body recomposition, or cycle weeks with a slight surplus followed by some weeks with a slight deficit.

I am looking to keep my IGF1 levels in the upper end of normal range for my cruise. 4iu is going to bring it well into the super-physiological levels. Same with my testosterone.

I check all my labs every month when I fuck around with peptides and compounds that affect hormone levels, lipids, or liver/kidney enzymes.

And my diet is good. I have gotten a little laxed recently, but am locking it back in.

 

[Timfok]

I am looking to keep my IGF1 levels in the upper end of normal range for my cruise. 4iu is going to bring it well into the super-physiological levels. Same with my testosterone.

I check all my labs every month when I fuck around with peptides and compounds that affect hormone levels, lipids, or liver/kidney enzymes.

And my diet is good. I have gotten a little laxed recently, but am locking it back in.

I’m on 4iu for the last month. Went from 130 IGF to 330 IGF. Got my hgh from this site.

 

[Calm Logic]

I am looking to keep my IGF1 levels in the upper end of normal range for my cruise. 4iu is going to bring it well into the super-physiological levels. Same with my testosterone.

I check all my labs every month when I fuck around with peptides and compounds that affect hormone levels, lipids, or liver/kidney enzymes.

And my diet is good. I have gotten a little laxed recently, but am locking it back in.

If you do post on Meso, it helps to give your lab values, such as by posting screenshots of them. I guess they assume BP is 120/80 or better unless otherwise stated.

Healthwise, the biggest irony of AAS use that it is almost entirely done by men, who as a group are already aging about a decade faster than women cardiovascularly:

Why women may have better heart health than men earlier in life

New research indicates that men develop cardiovascular disease seven years earlier than women, suggesting that men may require “more intensive screening and detection” as they age.

www.medicalnewstoday.com

Divergence in risk begins as early as 35 years of age. "Early intervention and risk factor control give you the best chance of shifting your long-term trajectory."

 

[Tbagger]

I’m not trying to convince anyone, including myself, that AAS usage is completely safe or that everyone should be out there blasting and cruising like crazy. But I’m a grown ass man who has done my own risk assessment and found a very tame cycle of a mild anabolic to be worth exploring. And it’s being done under medical supervision with labs and monitoring. I feel like the only way this cycle would be considered reckless is if someone is just adamantly against all AAS usage. Which would be a little ironic considering we are in a group dedicated to injecting sketchy Chinese research compounds of varying degrees of legality. lol

 

[Calm Logic]

I’m not trying to convince anyone, including myself, that AAS usage is completely safe or that everyone should be out there blasting and cruising like crazy. But I’m a grown ass man who has done my own risk assessment and found a very tame cycle of a mild anabolic to be worth exploring. And it’s being done under medical supervision with labs and monitoring. I feel like the only way this cycle would be considered reckless is if someone is just adamantly against all AAS usage. Which would be a little ironic considering we are in a group dedicated to injecting sketchy Chinese research compounds of varying degrees of legality. lol

You posted for opinions. You got them.

What you didn't post was your lab results or anything truly objective to indicate your body is somewhat ready for insult. Even for regular TRT, LDL should be below 100. A1C below 5.7:



For TRT+, LDL should be below 70, A1C at/below 5.4 (?) per the guys at Meso:

https://thinksteroids.com/community/threads/cost-effective-bloodwork-source.134433218/post-3660067

Get your LDL below 70, your hdl above 60 and nuke your triglycerides.

https://thinksteroids.com/community/threads/when-to-add-in-ezetimibe.134430519/post-3518433

In a few years it's likely treatment standards will be updated to aggressively get LDL below 70 starting at age 25.

https://www.thinksteroids.com/community/threads/feel-like-a-neutered-dog-at-26.134435377/post-3705506

LDL below 70, HDL above 60. Don't eat saturated fats. If you can't get it there naturally, use a statin.

Some guys at Meso have LDL below 30 by combining a statin with Repatha and Zetia.

 

[Omxxl]

We shouldn't argue amongst ourselves; I think having different opinions is perfectly valid. It's also important to know which ones interest us.

I recognize that some of the practices I do aren't healthy, but that's okay. So many harmful things are done by everyone that mine are insignificant.

When I first joined this forum (I'm usually on Spanish-speaking forums like Meso), I was amazed by the amount of peptides people were taking, hahaha. Now I've normalized it.

 

[Tbagger]

I stated my labs are spot on. I figured that would convey that I have had all my lab work done and everything was optimal, or at the very least within the normal range. I even stated in another comment that I get my labs done every month which should also show that I am fairly meticulous about monitoring everything. I didn’t think I needed to go over every marker and provide receipts lol

 

[Calm Logic]

At the very least, eat some/more avocados to help with your HDL that will only go down.

The best advice for newbies is to do even more reading than you think is necessary, since you don't know what you don't know. Like it takes a lot of reading at Meso to realize the very different opinions there, like using statins proactively (which is hard to do on oral steroids due to liver concerns).

And even doctors may not test as frequently as would be ideal, especially if they don't know everything you are running.

For steroid use outside of bodybuilding competitions, anything you want to cycle is arguably better as a cruise (as with TRT) or to just skip it completely. And if you need more of a boost, more test is best, or something else like HCG, rather than less natural orals, mast, primo, etc.

In other words, to maintain gains and health, it's better to cruise than to cycle. A lot of newbies get distracted with orals, cycles, and stacks (and vendor pricelists) compared to the guys who are "dialed in," cruising just on test (even at 200 to 350 mg/week, with EOD subq dosing seeming safer with more stable levels or using test-u).

The other newbie mistake, as I mentioned before, is to think normal lab results are good enough harm reduction for steroid use (outside of TRT for normal or high-normal testosterone). Not to mention having other blood tests done like Lp(a), which gives some hint about genetic risk. But a CT calcium scoring would be better, especially with a significant history of obesity, like even mild obesity for a decade. (Doing another CT instead called CCTA would be the gold standard since it shows soft plaque too.)

I recognize that some of the practices I do aren't healthy, but that's okay. So many harmful things are done by everyone that mine are insignificant.

The other irony is that is it very illegal to prescribe HGH off-label, but a provider can prescribe Anavar and harsher orals for anything. It doesn't make any sense, but that is the legal situation here, even though significant use of Anavar and especially Anadrol (which was discontinued) can cause blood-filled cysts on the liver (which is another reason that imaging is ideal, along with labs, for repeating cycles).

 

[slick1]

I’m not trying to convince anyone, including myself, that AAS usage is completely safe or that everyone should be out there blasting and cruising like crazy. But I’m a grown ass man who has done my own risk assessment and found a very tame cycle of a mild anabolic to be worth exploring. And it’s being done under medical supervision with labs and monitoring. I feel like the only way this cycle would be considered reckless is if someone is just adamantly against all AAS usage. Which would be a little ironic considering we are in a group dedicated to injecting sketchy Chinese research compounds of varying degrees of legality. lol

100% ON POINT

 

[aquis]

I am looking to keep my IGF1 levels in the upper end of normal range for my cruise. 4iu is going to bring it well into the super-physiological levels. Same with my testosterone.

I check all my labs every month when I fuck around with peptides and compounds that affect hormone levels, lipids, or liver/kidney enzymes.

And my diet is good. I have gotten a little laxed recently, but am locking it back in.

Just my experience after adding HGH.

I've been on TRT (130mg weekly split into 2 doses) for a few years, Reta (4mg maintenance now) for 10 months and recently added HGH. Turns out I'm an HGH super responder.

At 3IU nightly of HGH, my IGF-1 went from 136 to 445 and my Z-score went from 0.0 to 2.9. I started at 1IU and moved up every 3 weeks until I was at 3IU and did labs at week 9. I was very surprised with the labs and only experienced very minimal sides.

Currently back down to 2IU nightly of HGH. Labs again in 2 weeks.

HGH has been great for recovery from workouts. I haven't gotten much sleep benefit like most do, but HGH benefits appear in the long-term.

 

[GTS97]

Meso is garbo. Find a better forum. I’m not allowed to say it but just search for other forums of that subject. Var will do you better when you’re lower bf so just stick to trt and hgh for the time being.

 

[Tbagger]

Meso is garbo. Find a better forum. I’m not allowed to say it but just search for other forums of that subject. Var will do you better when you’re lower bf so just stick to trt and hgh for the time being.

I'm just guessing my BF. My hume pod has me at 13% and the inbody has me at 14% but I think I look higher so I just guess it's around 17%.

 

[Mr. Blonde]

I'm just guessing my BF. My hume pod has me at 13% and the inbody has me at 14% but I think I look higher so I just guess it's around 17%.

Not saying it is exact but at around 15% you should have top 4 abs somewhat visible. 6 pack is probably closer to 13%. Again this isn't exact but it is generally accurate for most people.

 

[Gt3294a]

Drinking black coffee is another option for liver support, as is the oral supplement TUDCA.

Very high amounts of NAC are used for Tylenol overdose, but that can increase hematocrit levels. For drug-induced liver injury with Anavar, I used both NAC and glutathione, as well as black coffee and TUDCA and some milk thistle. But they did not seem to help much since it took several months for my liver enzymes to be normal again.

This is very true. Reta and tudca made my liver markers even under stress so much better than the past.

 

[Gt3294a]

At the very least, eat some/more avocados to help with your HDL that will only go down.

The best advice for newbies is to do even more reading than you think is necessary, since you don't know what you don't know. Like it takes a lot of reading at Meso to realize the very different opinions there, like using statins proactively (which is hard to do on oral steroids due to liver concerns).

And even doctors may not test as frequently as would be ideal, especially if they don't know everything you are running.

For steroid use outside of bodybuilding competitions, anything you want to cycle is arguably better as a cruise (as with TRT) or to just skip it completely. And if you need more of a boost, more test is best, or something else like HCG, rather than less natural orals, mast, primo, etc.

In other words, to maintain gains and health, it's better to cruise than to cycle. A lot of newbies get distracted with orals, cycles, and stacks (and vendor pricelists) compared to the guys who are "dialed in," cruising just on test (even at 200 to 350 mg/week, with EOD subq dosing seeming safer with more stable levels or using test-u).

The other newbie mistake, as I mentioned before, is to think normal lab results are good enough harm reduction for steroid use (outside of TRT for normal or high-normal testosterone). Not to mention having other blood tests done like Lp(a), which gives some hint about genetic risk. But a CT calcium scoring would be better, especially with a significant history of obesity, like even mild obesity for a decade. (Doing another CT instead called CCTA would be the gold standard since it shows soft plaque too.)


The other irony is that is it very illegal to prescribe HGH off-label, but a provider can prescribe Anavar and harsher orals for anything. It doesn't make any sense, but that is the legal situation here, even though significant use of Anavar and especially Anadrol (which was discontinued) can cause blood-filled cysts on the liver (which is another reason that imaging is ideal, along with labs, for repeating cycles).

OP - this is a good read. Var always hit lipid profile hard for me. I always thought of something to dry out the last 6 weeks of a cycle. Never really something fundamental to a cycle. I would think the cost benefit analysis of that or more test, would just say more test. But hey, I though low dose deca with TRT do those over 45 would be common by now, and it’s not quite yet.

 

[Tbagger]

Not saying it is exact but at around 15% you should have top 4 abs somewhat visible. 6 pack is probably closer to 13%. Again this isn't exact but it is generally accurate for most people.

My abs are all visible but not that tight defined 6 pack that I usually associate with low BF. Also, dysmorphia probably plays a role in my perception of my composition. I've been fat my whole life and still see it when I look in the mirror. Everyone tells me that I'm jacked and fit but I still see the fat ass I have always been. Once in a while I catch a glimpse of a fit person when I look at the mirror, but it's usually short lived.

 

[GTS97]

My abs are all visible but not that tight defined 6 pack that I usually associate with low BF. Also, dysmorphia probably plays a role in my perception of my composition. I've been fat my whole life and still see it when I look in the mirror. Everyone tells me that I'm jacked and fit but I still see the fat ass I have always been. Once in a while I catch a glimpse of a fit person when I look at the mirror, but it's usually short lived.

Man I feel that one hard. I always see myself different than I am too. I love how I look in the gym, when my muscles are full and pumped. When I’m home I definitely “see” myself differently.

Funny you say once in a while you’ll catch a different glimpse, because there’s been quite a few times when I go for a piss in the middle of the night I’ll catch a glimpse of myself in the mirror and I think, “Damn! I look buff!”

 

[Jack brown]

Can anyone explain how American doctors are allowed to prescribe literal oxandrolone?

If you are concerned about risks you can look up the trials where they treat burn victims with 20mg per day for years with no obvious permanent issues.

 

[Calm Logic]

FDA Black Box for Anavar, including reports of fatal malignant liver tumors, and warnings for fatal liver failure as well as atherosclerosis and coronary artery disease:

 

[Tbagger]

Can anyone explain how American doctors are allowed to prescribe literal oxandrolone?

If you are concerned about risks you can look up the trials where they treat burn victims with 20mg per day for years with no obvious permanent issues.

Pretty much as long as it’s not on the FDA black list, doctors can write a script for it. There’s a few exceptions that they regulate closely, like opioids and HGH. But most medications can be prescribed ”off label” which allows compounding pharmacies to fill them.