Bad faith in the marketplace

[designing677]

Yeah at a certain point asking a noob question for every little thing feels like it takes longer than just… stfu and reading. I appreciate how much cleaner the boards are because of the lack of noob spam. Eternal September, like you said (I looked it up).

Same experience. I'll admit, I rolled my eyes at all the rules, restrictions, etc. It seemed a little over the top and I was wondering if it was the right place for me, but I quickly realized that it's intentional. Everything we do is at our own risk and knowledge is everything. You're way more invested when you research this stuff rather than just asking questions and having the answers provided to you. That's a foreign concept in this day and age.

 

[tubby]

Really, we're not appreciative enough of the leadership team here and how they set things up. For being a public forum, it sucks a whole lot less than it otherwise would if they didn't set things up the way they did. At the same time, instead of blocking, banning, or even mocking OP, Zippity clearly unpacks and clarifies the intent in an assertive but professional tone.

 

[HereKittyKitty]

Lots of good discussion here. I don't have any answers. Im new and I'm not supposed to have answers! Yet, have you ever met a buyer who doesn't want "better" from a seller?

Jeff Bazos' brilliance is his theory of customer obsession. Bezos says, "customer obsession is rooted in a simple yet profound belief: the customer is always the most important person in the room."

I do think more feedback is better than less feedback when it comes to feedback from buyers. However, I get it: feedback from a "Specialist" is more qualitative and meaningful than feedback from a "Recently Joined."

Maybe there could be several ways of giving feedback like they do on Yelp, Groupon, Uber, etc... ?

The "specialists" could continue to have the exclusive monopoly on qualitative feedback and everyone else could provide quantitative feedback as in a Liker star 1-7 scale to certain quantitative questions. Some hypothetical example questions: 1) Did the vendor provide a tracking number within 72 hours? 2) Did the product ship from the advertised location? 3) Did the product arrive in-tact prior to XX days? 4) Was there a problem with shipping, if so did the vendor resolve the problem?... etc... Im betting there are even better quantitative questions that could be asked. I for one would like to see how many quantitative stars one vendor has versus another vendor.

What you are missing in your understanding is that you are not buying white goods from an established entity.

At best, you are buying from the manufacturer once removed. More likely, the seller is an independent sales rep who works solely on commission for several manufacturers. The seller can be here one day and vapor the next. Quantitative scores are meaningless in a landscape of high churn and dubious origins. No one is pulling your leg when they tell you trust between buyer and seller is tenuous. Research everything. Test everything. Filter everything.

If you want customer service, quantitative vendor reviews, and "trust" try Lilly Direct.

Eventually, you will see with your own eyes what is being said here.

 

[grizpat]

Same experience. I'll admit, I rolled my eyes at all the rules, restrictions, etc. It seemed a little over the top and I was wondering if it was the right place for me, but I quickly realized that it's intentional. Everything we do is at our own risk and knowledge is everything. You're way more invested when you research this stuff rather than just asking questions and having the answers provided to you. That's a foreign concept in this day and age.

Just head over to Redditt and see what happens when there's no requirements before posting. It's just an endless cycle of people asking how to reconstitute and what dose to start with. 90% is worthless for anyone who has been involved over 2 months (I admit I spent my first 2 months reading it obsessively). Every time I open GLP1 forum, I'm blown away at the knowledge base and also how (mostly) kind and respectful everyone is here. Redditt is the case in point of endless September. I wouldn't trust any user over there to give me advice about which vendor to use (which isn't allowed on Redditt anyway, thank god).

 

[HereKittyKitty]

Oh lordy. Reddit is a nightmare.

 

[designing677]

Just head over to Redditt and see what happens when there's no requirements before posting. It's just an endless cycle of people asking how to reconstitute and what dose to start with. 90% is worthless for anyone who has been involved over 2 months (I admit I spent my first 2 months reading it obsessively). Every time I open GLP1 forum, I'm blown away at the knowledge base and also how (mostly) kind and respectful everyone is here. Redditt is the case in point of endless September. I wouldn't trust any user over there to give me advice about which vendor to use (which isn't allowed on Redditt anyway, thank god).

Reddit is such a cesspool. I learned everything I needed to know about it when I got banned from a subreddit specific to my career for providing career advice. Not a discussion about the merits of my opinion - just banned. 😆

Although it's kind of a pain to do, I prefer topic specific forums anyway. The people seem more invested, rather than just downvoting people they don't agree with.

 

[Ruckus4519]

Just head over to Redditt and see what happens when there's no requirements before posting

I didn't mention it, but Reddit is quite literally what I had in mind lmao

Every other hobby/interest I subscribed too is constantly inundated with "how do i-???" and backlash posts of "can we PLEASE ban how do i??? posts????" Even in subreddits with well established FAQs and Wikis (Love it when they do. Wish all of them had it).

You're way more invested when you research this stuff rather than just asking questions and having the answers provided to you.

You're probably right with this. There's gotta be some psychological factor. "DIY/IKEA Theory" or some shit hahahaha

Personally I would've been too embarrassed to ask a half-ass formulated question, so I'd like to think I'd have approached this sub with the same methodology without the rules, but the barrier to entry definitely trimmed down the posts I had to sift through in the first place.

 

[anhydrous]

Accountability from a drug dealer lol. What planet are you from?

 

[ChicagoFit]

@tubby you've hit the nail on the head! Thank you and I agree with you entirely. Moreover, to not be misunderstood, I am suggesting a continuance of what exists I.e. member "specialists" are the only ones allowed to review or compliment the vendors. No one else --even a purchaser-- has permission.

Free speech can't exist if we want to avoid a spiral into mediocrity. The qualitative discourse must remain exclusive to those who have demonstrated group thought. Worse we don't want to get trapped into the "eternal September" of constant low-quality reading. How many times must those sincerely invested in the forum be tortured with the grey-abyss of similar slough like Fat Chance or Virgin's or Rocky ?

Those selected for speech are there because they have sufficiently demonstrated a reflection of the upper echelon of the group.

The only slight difference I am proposing (and I withdraw the proposal if it isn't in keeping with the group) is that all of the "non-specialists" could have a most minimum opportunity to rate the sellers in a quantitative way --a rate system of numbers, stars, or points for criteria categories. Like an Amazon seller having 3 stars and another seller having 4 stars -- something quantitative to compare. This would be reserved for those who have purchased.

With a "number system" for the non-elite members, there would continue to be no opportunity for a dreaded eternal September. Numbers or Symbols, not words, would communicate the review.

The actual written "reviews" and compliments of the sellers would continue being limited to member "specialist" in order to reduce unwanted speech and humdrum text. "Specialist" experts would maintain the quality and qualitative information for all others.

@HereKittyKitty assumptions that a new person doesn't understand they are engaging a grey market is beyond the realm of reason.

With my suggestion, I for one could benefit from the review of OP @Satnuj and many others like him. The 'wisdom of the crowd' via metrics could be a good thing, without the 'humdrum text' that numbs the minds of purists.

 

[tubby]

@tubby you've hit the nail on the head! Thank you and I agree with you entirely. Moreover, to not be misunderstood, I am suggesting a continuance of what exists I.e. member "specialists" are the only ones allowed to review or compliment the vendors. No one else --even a purchaser-- has permission.

Free speech can't exist if we want to avoid a spiral into mediocrity. The qualitative discourse must remain exclusive to those who have demonstrated group thought. Worse we don't want to get trapped into the "eternal September" of constant low-quality reading. How many times must those sincerely invested in the forum be tortured with the grey-abyss of similar slough like Fat Chance or Virgin's or Rocky ?

Those selected for speech are there because they have sufficiently demonstrated a reflection of the upper echelon of the group.

The only slight difference I am proposing (and I withdraw the proposal if it isn't in keeping with the group) is that all of the "non-specialists" could have a most minimum opportunity to rate the sellers in a quantitative way --a rate system of numbers, stars, or points for criteria categories. Like an Amazon seller having 3 stars and another seller having 4 stars -- something quantitative to compare. This would be reserved for those who have purchased.

With a "number system" for the non-elite members, there would continue to be no opportunity for a dreaded eternal September. Numbers or Symbols, not words, would communicate the review.

The actual written "reviews" and compliments of the sellers would continue being limited to member "specialist" in order to reduce unwanted speech and humdrum text. "Specialist" experts would maintain the quality and qualitative information for all others.

@HereKittyKitty assumptions that a new person doesn't understand they are engaging a grey market is beyond the realm of reason.

With my suggestion, I for one could benefit from the review of OP @Satnuj and many others like him. The 'wisdom of the crowd' via metrics could be a good thing, without the 'humdrum text' that numbs the minds of purists.

Hate to disagree with you, but I'm not sure if changes like that would be productive, if I'm being honest. The goal of a forum like this isn't to achieve conformity or standardization (and that's why I complimented the admin for specifically not taking an approach like that, which is sadly common these days online).

The problem with the OP wasn't so much that he had a "bad" opinion, but rather that it was a naive opinion that reflected a lack of certain base knowledge and unrealistic expectations. OP ignoring the stated relationship between vendors and forum, which had been posted prominently in the vendor section as a disclaimer. The desire for a more Amazon-like experience is a perfectly reasonable desire for someone to have. It's just that the very nature of the grey market prevents that from that being a realistic outcome. Had OP framed the post as "wouldn't it be nice if the grey market could be a different way," I think people would have been open to that discussion, perhaps pointing out the reasons it can't be that way. Instead OP framed it as "let me the newcomer tell the rest of you are doing wrong and offer a totally unworkable solution to this problem." In traditional Internet (pre-AOL) culture the common response to that wasn't censorship, but relentlessly mocking the undesired behavior until cultural norms were adhered to. It was a good system, as long as the majority maintained it and the flow of "newbies" was small enough for it to work.

There's likely no point to setting up some elaborate review system to try to police the grey market, since that only serves to imply a greater sense of confidence in individual vendors than actually exists. Part of the learning curve here is figuring out that at best you can try to follow past trends, but they don't guarantee future results.

 

[CNCCurrency]

What you are missing in your understanding is that you are not buying white goods from an established entity.

At best, you are buying from the manufacturer once removed. More likely, the seller is an independent sales rep who works solely on commission for several manufacturers. The seller can be here one day and vapor the next. Quantitative scores are meaningless in a landscape of high churn and dubious origins. No one is pulling your leg when they tell you trust between buyer and seller is tenuous. Research everything. Test everything. Filter everything.

If you want customer service, quantitative vendor reviews, and "trust" try Lilly Direct.

Eventually, you will see with your own eyes what is being said here.

Accountability from a drug dealer lol. What planet are you from?

 

[UpDownLeftRightAS*]

Message edited a lot because you included a bunch of Telegram links that can only be seen if someone is logged into your Telegram account.


This is your biggest mistake, and sounds like you chose to ignore our prominent

⚠️ VENDOR DISCLAIMER ⚠️​

What happens in vendor Telegram (or any other platform) groups outside of this forum is beyond our control.

Bottom line is that it's on YOU and YOU ALONE to determine if a vendor is trustworthy and fits your risk profile.

If you can write a simple, straightforward review without including a bunch of links to nowhere and editorializing, you may submit it in the Vendor Reviews section once you reach the GLP-1 Apprentice user level.

That was nice of you to edit and keep the post for situational awareness. Thanks. It's important to trust your gut instincts, if it seems off.....it probably is!

 

[ChicagoFit]

Hate to disagree with you, but I'm not sure if changes like that would be productive, if I'm being honest. The goal of a forum like this isn't to achieve conformity or standardization (and that's why I complimented the admin for specifically not taking an approach like that, which is sadly common these days online).

The problem with the OP wasn't so much that he had a "bad" opinion, but rather that it was a naive opinion that reflected a lack of certain base knowledge and unrealistic expectations. OP ignoring the stated relationship between vendors and forum, which had been posted prominently in the vendor section as a disclaimer. The desire for a more Amazon-like experience is a perfectly reasonable desire for someone to have. It's just that the very nature of the grey market prevents that from that being a realistic outcome. Had OP framed the post as "wouldn't it be nice if the grey market could be a different way," I think people would have been open to that discussion, perhaps pointing out the reasons it can't be that way. Instead OP framed it as "let me the newcomer tell the rest of you are doing wrong and offer a totally unworkable solution to this problem." In traditional Internet (pre-AOL) culture the common response to that wasn't censorship, but relentlessly mocking the undesired behavior until cultural norms were adhered to. It was a good system, as long as the majority maintained it and the flow of "newbies" was small enough for it to work.

There's likely no point to setting up some elaborate review system to try to police the grey market, since that only serves to imply a greater sense of confidence in individual vendors than actually exists. Part of the learning curve here is figuring out that at best you can try to follow past trends, but they don't guarantee future results.

@tubby did you disagree that I agree with you? I'm merely suggesting, while simultaneously largely agreeing with you, that a proposed quantitative review system of vendors from purchasers (without any risk of eternal September as the straw-man hyperbolists warn) among other things would serve as a tool (not a perfect tool, but better than no quantitative tool) to differentiate between vendors. Its not far-fetched complicated, quantitative reviews exist in many forums.

Admittedly my bias is that buyers are typically better off with more data (both high and low quality data) to better assess, diagnose, plan, implement, and evaluate. Instead of pouncing on the OP while he doesn't have similar permission to reply to the criticisms, I would have preferred to know more from the OP even if he were uncouth or held views different than my own. Better than shutting his door, would be giving him a tool that offends no one and guards dialogue.

In addition, the information provided by the most recent purchasers have canary-in-the-coal-mine cache. In other words, knowing how well the canary flew in-and-out of the coal mine successfully many times in years past might not be comforting to a coal-miner whose canary just died flying in the coal mine moments before he entered.

 

[ZippityDooDah]

Nothing is going to change regarding what user level a member must achieve to be able to post vendor reviews or discuss specific sources outside of a formal review.

The current policies are based on years of experience and countless BS reviews that were either incentivized (i.e. compensated) by a vendor, vendors stealth shilling themselves, people sent to intentionally disparage competing suppliers, or newbies complaining about things that are completely normal and expected.

 

[HereKittyKitty]

@HereKittyKitty assumptions that a new person doesn't understand they are engaging a grey market is beyond the realm of reason.

What is beyond the realm of reason is that you don't seem to either be willing to ingest the reality that a quantitative scoring model is meaningless or you are incapable. I prefer to believe you are unwilling.

Scoring is a form of endorsement.

What happens when you see a vendor with a high score, you order, and something goes wrong or - worse - you get scammed? As we saw early in this thread, there was an (incorrect) assumption that advertising space here indicated endorsement by the forum owner.

If you want such a system, which @ZippityDooDah has clearly stated will not happen here, you are always welcome to start a forum that meets your needs. Sure hope you'll stay though. Hope, too, this isn't a deal breaker for you. You're well-spoken and thoughtful. Always good traits in a world where the written word is all we have to go on.

 

[HereKittyKitty]

Stairway to Grey might be a good option if you want a list of vetted** sellers.

**Vetted means they will sell you white powder for money

 

[tubby]

a proposed quantitative review system of vendors from purchasers

The challenge here is it creates a false sense of security that newbies would interpret as endorsement (no matter how many disclaimers might say otherwise). It also leads to weird incentive structures (like Amazon) where vendors engage in manipulative forms of feedback-seeking and top reviews often reflect effort being put into gaming the review system rather than actual product or service quality. In feedback-seeking you're incentivizing the creation of synthetic accounts (to stuff the ballot box) and creating unintended consequences to the greater forum just to create a vendor rating system that would be dubious at best.

Truth be told, it would actually be in management's financial interest to create such a system. It would negatively affect forum quality, but would probably increase vendor sales and enable management to tack on extra charges for upgrades that help them game the review system better. It's a positive reflection that they've chosen not to do this and instead prioritize the integrity of the dialogue and culture of the forum.

canary-in-the-coal-mine cache

That's really the best you're going to do in the grey market. These aren't established businesses you and I can visit personally, kick the tires, and note that they have 10-year leases in strip malls ensuring they have a strong financial incentive not to cut and run. It should be assumed that if the day ever comes where the financial cost of fixing a problem that comes up greatly exceeds the future earning potential of one of these companies that they will disappear overnight. To expect anything other than that just isn't being realistic.

 

[miss-sanne]

But really, I can't believe how many new vendors show up all the time here.
People want cheap and they don't want to research much, and yes, they get scammed a lot.
Scammers know, people want cheap.
Vendors come and go. They are only as good as their last order. (I think, someone on TG got kisspeptide instead of tirz... great day for her ! lol)
Just to say, trusted vendors can fuck up, too.
Never spend more than you can afford to lose.
If you want no risk, buy pharma.

 

[zpped]

With a "number system" for the non-elite members, there would continue to be no opportunity for a dreaded eternal September. Numbers or Symbols, not words, would communicate the review.

How do you propose to prevent a shady seller (i.e. all of them) from flooding all their competitors reviews and/or pumping their own numbers?

 

[Boggit]

What is happening is no different to any kind of market or vendor of this nature.

All the way back when there was 4mmc that hit the scenes, there were websites, vendors etc. I remember the days Chamapage Legals and Fuckled. And then you could go direct to china. Even before then, you had that Canadian site where you could order grass from. You have private sources boards etc

You've ofc go the DNMs, and then you have this kind of thing and telegram etc. its no different you just to have find someone who is very reliable and in it for the long haul.