UGL vs “gray”

Let’s assume the patent is being violated. (While I’m a lawyer, I know little law outside my unrelated area of expertise and can’t opine on whether there is a violation.) It would seem to me at least the tirzepatide produced in violation of a patent is still genuine tirzepatide. Presenting tirzepatide not manufactured by Eli Lilly as Zepbound or Mounjaro would make it counterfeit.
Tirz is still only one ingredient in the finished product that we inject. So counterfeit might not be the right legal term but its the correct analogy because most people aren't buying raw tirz. We say we're buying tirz but were actually buying a knockoff of zep.
 
Doesn't the molecule patent give them exclusive legal rights to control who manufactures and distributes the molecule?


Even if they never enforce the molecule patent, I thought it did afford them legal recourse to shutdown unauthorized vendors producing this molecule.

But I've only seen them enforce their brand trademark.
Infringing on a patent doesn't mean counterfeit, though.

made in imitation of something else with intent to deceive

If something actually is tirzepatide, it is tirzepatide. Not a counterfeit version of tirzepatide. If it tries to be passed off as zepbound instead of just being tirzepatide, then it becomes counterfeit.

But the legality of something in America is a concern for us, not for a company in China. UGL isn't a strictly defined term, but my understanding is that these companies are hardly underground in China - they exist, the government is aware of them, and steps in in certain cases where they do begin breaking Chinese law. (Patents are valid in China but as I'm sure we've all heard just how enforceable they are is a whole different matter).

Now, the grey market definition doesn't fit exactly either, so I understand the resistance to using it. It's not an accurate term. But I think for UGL to be an accurate term, the labs would need to actually be underground in China, and not operating in plain sight.
 
I have no legal ground, but my ethical ground says that those attempting to patent a naturally occurring molecule can go fuck themselves.

Patent the manufacturing process or the delivery system or whatnot, but the molecule? Imma say f that.
 
I have no legal ground, but my ethical ground says that those attempting to patent a naturally occurring molecule can go fuck themselves.

Tirzepatide is not found in nature. It's synthetic.

It has elements found in nature, but the molecule itself is not something you can harvest from a once-living organism. It doesn't exist.
 
Let us break it down price by price.

My 60mg mounjaro pen will cost me $505 USD

High quality 99%+ purity chinese tirz30 costs me $160usd for ten vials.

That comes down to $32USD for two vials (total 60mg probably overdosed as well lets say 62mg).

Now compare china dosage that I can get from the ten vials which is 300mg of tirz vs mounjaro 60mg.

Chinese tirz will last me much longer as well.

Screw American capitalism, they only bring about patents to further increase their own profit and corporate greed.

My money. I earnt it. Free market economy. If america wants my money, make your prices cheaper. Simple as that. No government can tell me what I should do with my own money, I’ll spend it any which way I want.

If Eli Lilly or Nova Nordisk can offer me chinese prices then tomorrow I’ll stop buying imported peps.

It is all about affordability. Cost of living pressures in Australia is very high at the moment. Rent has gone up. Food has gone up. Drs fees have gone up. Fuel has gone up. Prior to covid a 1kg bag of tomatoes used to be $2aud. Now you cant get it for less than $4.50
 
Rather than counterfeit or black market Tirz, why not Generic Tirz. Similar to the acetaminophen=Tylenol that @Hexigonal mentioned in an earlier post
 
So NN spends over $10 billion in research over the last three decades and they have only been profitable the last few years. Why shouldn't they make their money back that they spent on the backend regardless of what it costs them to actually produce it now?

Fortunately, my insurance covers Ozempic and has for the last 3 years. I pay $15/mo. My insurance pays over $1000/mo. I am here in case I get dropped....

I won't even entertain the health insurance cost argument here. I lived in England for part of my childhood and remember my mother having to wait 4 months for a dentist appt... my cousin's son hurt himself playing rugby a few months ago. 3 weeks wait for an MRI or pay out of pocket? We impatient Americans would not last a minute in one of these countries and would be paying out of pocket, like they do, for everything.
 
Rather than counterfeit or black market Tirz, why not Generic Tirz. Similar to the acetaminophen=Tylenol that @Hexigonal mentioned in an earlier post
It is actually very similar to a generic. But with the huge difference that generic also means it was manufactured and distributed under government regulation
 
So NN spends over $10 billion in research over the last three decades and they have only been profitable the last few years. Why shouldn't they make their money back that they spent on the backend regardless of what it costs them to actually produce it now?

Fortunately, my insurance covers Ozempic and has for the last 3 years. I pay $15/mo. My insurance pays over $1000/mo. I am here in case I get dropped....

I won't even entertain the health insurance cost argument here. I lived in England for part of my childhood and remember my mother having to wait 4 months for a dentist appt... my cousin's son hurt himself playing rugby a few months ago. 3 weeks wait for an MRI or pay out of pocket? We impatient Americans would not last a minute in one of these countries and would be paying out of pocket, like they do, for everything.
The government should fund (and well!) R&D and production of drugs. I don't think pharma companies are necessarily evil, but it's very apparent that incentives are misaligned with the drug industry being for-profit. Also, by the sources I can find, NN has been profitable since at least 2009 - https://www.statista.com/statistics/947619/net-profit-of-novo-nordisk/ - and based on the trends, likely for longer than that. And, to be clear, Novo Nordisk's market cap is currently 370b. Lilly's is 740b. These are not companies that are barely keeping their heads above water after now that they've found the light at the end of the tunnel.

But, that's orthogonal to my point either way - NN and EL and co. should simply not exist in their current incarnation. Profit driving what you spend your time researching and bringing to market heavily incentivizes long term management of disease over curing it. It disincentivizes any sort of work that is unlikely to produce a high ROI.

Even from a practical perspective, having a happy and healthy population is key to having a productive population.

Obviously, that's not the world we live in, and I think that yes, EL and NN should be able to seek profits. But we also know that they are making plenty of money and would recoup their R&D costs and much much more at significantly lower pricing than we have in America, where the pricing is far higher than even in other similarly wealthy countries.

The answer to why is complex, but basically none of those reasons are beneficial to the citizens of the country on the whole.


Wait times are also a complex topic. They are based on assessed medical necessity. It's not perfect, and lots of countries with socialized medicine do better than England does, but the worst waits are for elective procedures or for situations where the evidence is that it is not a serious health concern. But there's also nothing inherent that requires socialized drug development to also result in socialized healthcare, regardless of your thoughts on the latter.
 
I’ve noticed a lot of folks using a new euphemism for what we used to call underground lab peptides, calling it “gray” now. Thought it could be an interesting topic for discussion. My cynical side concludes that this is a way to help buyers ignore the risks involved, since “gray market” makes it sound like pharma with a different supply channel, where “underground lab” conjures images of rogue labs without oversight. Curious what y’all think about this trend.
I have not heard the UGL term before, but the term “gray” market makes sense to me because the items are legal to sell somewhere, just not where we are. Plus, they are for sale on American company websites. I feel like black market implies that the items are illegal most everywhere, like illicit drugs or weapons, or are counterfeits intended to deceive the end consumer. I feel like the gray market just exploits loopholes.
 
The person with the $15 copay thinks the for-profit pharma system is a-okay. The people who would have to pay $1100 per pen, not so much. I can’t say I am terribly surprised by that.

$1100 pens in USA only cost around $200 in Canada. I'm not sure if the rest is subsidized by the government or if EL's pricing model is just tiered this way to meet supply/demand curves in that market?

Having just said that, I recently learned that the USD is now upside down with CAD. Most of my life our dollar was stronger than Canada's. And now it's flipped. $1 CAD = $0.70 USD.

So I guess it'd be around $260 USD for a Canadian pen. This was something I was seriously considering when I was first starting out. I'm about 3 hours away from Canada. Not sure about doing that monthly though.

Still hell of a deal.

And that is what I consider to be closer to the definition of "Gray Market" peps.

My best guess on why pens are $1100 retail is simply "because they can". And I still think it's a hell of a deal if those get put to use to improve health and life longevity.
 
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I’ve noticed a lot of folks using a new euphemism for what we used to call underground lab peptides, calling it “gray” now. Thought it could be an interesting topic for discussion. My cynical side concludes that this is a way to help buyers ignore the risks involved, since “gray market” makes it sound like pharma with a different supply channel, where “underground lab” conjures images of rogue labs without oversight. Curious what y’all think about this trend.
I’ve noticed a lot of folks using a new euphemism for what we used to call underground lab peptides, calling it “gray” now. Thought it could be an interesting topic for discussion. My cynical side concludes that this is a way to help buyers ignore the risks involved, since “gray market” makes it sound like pharma with a different supply channel, where “underground lab” conjures images of rogue labs without oversight. Curious what y’all think about this trend.
I agree, it’s a little fib we tell ourselves. Regardless what we think, law enforcement considers it illegal black market drugs.
 
$1100 pens in USA only cost around $200 in Canada. I'm not sure if the rest is subsidized by the government or if EL's pricing model is just tiered this way to meet supply/demand curves in that market?

Having just said that, I recently learned that the USD is now upside down with CAD. Most of my life our dollar was stronger than Canada's. And now it's flipped. $1 CAD = $0.70 USD.

So I guess it'd be around $260 USD for a Canadian pen. This was something I was seriously considering when I was first starting out. I'm about 3 hours away from Canada. Not sure about doing that monthly though.

Still hell of a deal.

And that is what I consider to be closer to the definition of "Gray Market" peps.

My best guess on why pens are $1100 retail is simply "because they can". And I still think it's a hell of a deal if those get put to use to improve health and life longevity.
The $200 CAD pen costs $140USD. I have an office in Canada and loosely track the exchange rate. It is currently $1.42 CAD per $1 USD. It typically runs closer to $1.25 CAD per $1 USD but at $1.42 it is approaching a five-year high (or low if you are buying US goods using CAD).

I think part of the reason the cost is so high in the US is the pharma cost to get drugs through FDA approval. It can cost over $1b (and often more) to get a drug through stage three trials.

I am not sure how other countries approve drugs for sale to their citizens, do they look to the US FDA's approval and then rubber stamp?

This cost prevents a lot of drugs from making it onto the market. Many of the peps that we research would make great mainstream medical treatments but if the market demand for a drug isn't in the billions $ then the ROI doesn't pencil out and the drugs never come to market.
 
The $200 CAD pen costs $140USD. I have an office in Canada and loosely track the exchange rate. It is currently $1.42 CAD per $1 USD. It typically runs closer to $1.25 CAD per $1 USD but at $1.42 it is approaching a five-year high (or low if you are buying US goods using CAD).

I think my news source at the time was using 200 as the price in USD. But if it was quoted in CAD, then yeah, 140USD.

Either way, it's way cheaper than what you see in USA.
 
The reason we get a 4mg Ozempic pen for $200AUD is the government talks with all big pharmaceutical companies wishing to sell products in the Australian market. The government tells these companies we will only allow a max sell price of xyz. I think for ozempic 4mg pen it cannot exceed $240aud. The highest price I have seen it sold here is for around $210.

I have a pharmacist friend who tells me whatever our cost price from the big companies we only add a 10-15% margin on top.

So lets say Nova Nordisk is selling ozempic 4mg for $180aud to the pharmacy. Then the pharmacy will sell it to you for $198-207

Our governing body in charge of medicines in Australia is called the TGA (Therapeutic Goods Administration).

Now with wegovy recently approved prices are much higher. As wegovy has been approved for weight loss and ozempic is only prescribed for diabetes patients. 1mg x4 injections of wegovy costs $280-340.

Same drug. Same quantity. Exact same pen design. Two different prices. Is that not greed?
 
I don’t think the pharma companies ever expected this class of drugs to be this across the board successful.

Or they wouldn’t have released them.

Forr the same reason we still don’t have tires or lightbulbs that last forever.

And the same reason why curing hepatitis and pylori took decades to go mainstream.

It’s just not profitable to CURE the golden goose.

Now they need to capitalize (and or sabotage) by any means necessary.
 
I don’t think the pharma companies ever expected this class of drugs to be this across the board successful.

Or they wouldn’t have released them.

Forr the same reason we still don’t have tires or lightbulbs that last forever.

And the same reason why curing hepatitis and pylori took decades to go mainstream.

It’s just not profitable to CURE the golden goose.

Now they need to capitalize (and or sabotage) by any means necessary.
Tires and light bulbs (incandescent) are both consumable items for reasons of physics, not by any conspiracy.

A rubber that is capable of resisting any wear from use on a car is inherently bad at providing traction. And if you go look at any of the lightbulbs that have "been on for 100 years" they are bad at providing much light.

Pharma companies are in competition with each other, which is why we will see continuous improvements in these drugs and eventually lower prices as well.
 
Same drug. Same quantity. Exact same pen design. Two different prices. Is that not greed?

It could be viewed as greed.

My college economics professor taught us that the same seat in a movie theater will have Adult, Child, Student, and Senior Citizen pricing. And this was to attempt to capture the dollars from all markets segments.

My guess is that the weight loss customers are viewed as a different market segment than diabetics?

It's a good point. I'm curious as to the real answer.
 
It could be viewed as greed.

My college economics professor taught us that the same seat in a movie theater will have Adult, Child, Student, and Senior Citizen pricing. And this was to attempt to capture the dollars from all markets segments.

My guess is that the weight loss customers are viewed as a different market segment than diabetics?

It's a good point. I'm curious as to the real answer.
It is greed. Simple as that.

While I can buy sema20 from one of the vendors for $130usd
Thats 200 mgs of semaglutide.

Not 4mgs of ozempic/wegovy.

Semaglutide is one of the cheapest raw powders to produce on the market …

The other day I was in my local pharmacy and this little old lady was $3.70 short on her medicine and asked the pharmacist to put it back on the shelf … she simply couldnt afford it …

Real world stories big pharma doesnt want to hear about … I felt so sorry for the lady …
 
It is greed. Simple as that.

While I can buy sema20 from one of the vendors for $130usd
Thats 200 mgs of semaglutide.

Not 4mgs of ozempic/wegovy.

Semaglutide is one of the cheapest raw powders to produce on the market …

The other day I was in my local pharmacy and this little old lady was $3.70 short on her medicine and asked the pharmacist to put it back on the shelf … she simply couldnt afford it …

Real world stories big pharma doesnt want to hear about … I felt so sorry for the lady …
You're conflating the cost of manufacturing with all the other costs of operating a pharma company. R&D, legal, marketing, accounting. It's way easier and cheaper to sell something that someone else designed. That's not to say it isn't overpriced but it's not that simple.
 
The other day I was in my local pharmacy and this little old lady was $3.70 short on her medicine and asked the pharmacist to put it back on the shelf … she simply couldnt afford it …

Real world stories big pharma doesnt want to hear about … I felt so sorry for the lady …

I probably would have stepped up and given the old lady a 5 and make her feel good by saying something like "I'll save you a trip to the ATM".
 
And cause her to feel shame? I let her have her dignity.

Reading comprehension really seems to be a struggle.

I implied that I'd mitigate the shame by saying something like "I'll save you a trip to the ATM". Or you could have said bank here knowing she's older and probably not inclined to use a card.

Either way... I think you probably just feel like a tool for not helping her.
 
You're conflating the cost of manufacturing with all the other costs of operating a pharma company. R&D, legal, marketing, accounting. It's way easier and cheaper to sell something that someone else designed. That's not to say it isn't overpriced but it's not that simple.
Marketing is another part of the pharma industry that most of the modern world doesn't need - drug advertisements aren't a thing in much of the world outside of the USA.

Would be nice if it went away in the USA, too.
 
Marketing is another part of the pharma industry that most of the modern world doesn't need - drug advertisements aren't a thing in much of the world outside of the USA.

Would be nice if it went away in the USA, too.
Sure, no disagreement. But it's not really the point of my post.
 
Marketing is another part of the pharma industry that most of the modern world doesn't need - drug advertisements aren't a thing in much of the world outside of the USA.

Would be nice if it went away in the USA, too.
I love watching the drug TV ads. The visuals are great. The people look so happy and healthy. It might be a relatively old woman and man, but they look so happy and healthy. The weather looks good. The world looks so great. But then if you listen to what they're saying, you'll hear how terrible the medicine is. The audio will mainly be warnings.
 
Sure, no disagreement. But it's not really the point of my post.
Just pointing out another thing that drives healthcare cost up in general. A lot of Americans are surprised to hear that even in culturally similar places like Australia and the UK people aren't bombarded by drug ads.
 
Just pointing out another thing that drives healthcare cost up in general. A lot of Americans are surprised to hear that even in culturally similar places like Australia and the UK people aren't bombarded by drug ads.
American here, can't remember the last time I've seen a drug ad either... they are only played on certain media to certain audiences.
 
The reason we get a 4mg Ozempic pen for $200AUD is the government talks with all big pharmaceutical companies wishing to sell products in the Australian market. The government tells these companies we will only allow a max sell price of xyz. I think for ozempic 4mg pen it cannot exceed $240aud. The highest price I have seen it sold here is for around $210.

I have a pharmacist friend who tells me whatever our cost price from the big companies we only add a 10-15% margin on top.

So lets say Nova Nordisk is selling ozempic 4mg for $180aud to the pharmacy. Then the pharmacy will sell it to you for $198-207

Our governing body in charge of medicines in Australia is called the TGA (Therapeutic Goods Administration).

Now with wegovy recently approved prices are much higher. As wegovy has been approved for weight loss and ozempic is only prescribed for diabetes patients. 1mg x4 injections of wegovy costs $280-340.

Same drug. Same quantity. Exact same pen design. Two different prices. Is that not greed?
The term is “price caps” and in the USA the business guys brand this as communism very effectively. Us Americans don’t know what communism is anymore, but we know it is the worst thing there is, so it won’t ever happen. Pharma lobbyists and super PACs will convince voters that price caps equate to bread lines.
 

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