Anyone else started a TRT journey with grey?

[Mysoph]

Test results showed I had a pretty low T level (Total 192 ng/dL). For reference, I am a 42 year old male. My general practitioner is good to proceed with TRT using topicals, or refer to an endocrinologist. The cost of this will be very high and not covered well by my insurance. My doctor is fairly OK with testing whatever I ask him to regularly and knows I take a few off-script peptides already, so I don't feel uncomfortable being vague and telling him I am doing this from some telehealth or medspa and keeping it vague so I can still have regular testing.

I am considering trying the grey market Testosterone Cypionate in a micro-dosing regimen, subcutaneously. I am a bit nervous to do this despite having experimented with several other peptides and analogues. Something about exogenous "replacement". Anyway, I am just wondering if anyone has had the same thoughts or any experience with this?

 

[raw_oyster_eater]

i tried some big doses of that and it did almost nothing.

Ostarine gave better feels. 5 amino gave better feels.

 

[flipout24]

I'm all about gray market peptides. TRT is not one that I would personally use. Dosage needs to be very specific. You really don't want underfilled or overfilled vials. If you have insurance it should cover the TRT injectable medication over 40. Don't use the creams, they are garbage.

Most general practitioners won't prescribe it and require you to go to a urologist/endocrinologist. I would check your local area for a TRT clinic that will actually prescribe it for at home administration. I go see them every 6 months, get blood work done, and they send over the TRT prescription + estrogen blocker to the pharmacy. Each visit costs me something like $160, insurance doesn't cover it. The prescriptions cost me $15 for 6 months of TRT, which insurance does cover.

I started by going to a TRT clinic that administered it onsite which required me to go in weekly. That was expensive, something like $62 a week. But, overall, it's how I recommend anyone start. They started with a full blood work panel (Testosterone is only half the story, you NEED to know your estrogen levels too). Every three months they pulled blood and slowly adjusted my TRT levels, matched with the appropriate level of estrogen blockers. It took about a year to find the right balance. Doing that careful balancing game with gray market would make it that much more difficult. Once that was all figured out I switched to a doctor who would prescribe it directly for at home administration. Overall I think my TRT, doctors visits and blood work costs me $400ish a year.

*Edit: On another note, if you are doing TRT you should accompany it with HCG to maintain testicular activity. That I do purchase from the gray market because it's absolutely OUTRAGEOUS in the United States. It's actually cheaper to get the real stuff from Indian or European pharmacies than it is to get it from the gray vendors here. I think I paid $84 for a years worth from an Indian website for the actual name brand stuff. To give you an idea, a single vial in the US something like $300.

 

[Mysoph]

I'm all about gray market peptides. TRT is not one that I would personally use. Dosage needs to be very specific. You really don't want underfilled or overfilled vials. If you have insurance it should cover the TRT injectable medication over 40. Don't use the creams, they are garbage.

Most general practitioners won't prescribe it and require you to go to a urologist/endocrinologist. I would check your local area for a TRT clinic that will actually prescribe it for at home administration. I go see them every 6 months, get blood work done, and they send over the TRT prescription + estrogen blocker to the pharmacy. Each visit costs me something like $160, insurance doesn't cover it. The prescriptions cost me $15 for 6 months of TRT, which insurance does cover.

I started by going to a TRT clinic that administered it onsite which required me to go in weekly. That was expensive, something like $62 a week. But, overall, it's how I recommend anyone start. They started with a full blood work panel (Testosterone is only half the story, you NEED to know your estrogen levels too). Every three months they pulled blood and slowly adjusted my TRT levels, matched with the appropriate level of estrogen blockers. It took about a year to find the right balance. Doing that careful balancing game with gray market would make it that much more difficult. Once that was all figured out I switched to a doctor who would prescribe it directly for at home administration. Overall I think my TRT, doctors visits and blood work costs me $400ish a year.

*Edit: On another note, if you are doing TRT you should accompany it with HCG to maintain testicular activity. That I do purchase from the gray market because it's absolutely OUTRAGEOUS in the United States. It's actually cheaper to get the real stuff from Indian or European pharmacies than it is to get it from the gray vendors here. I think I paid $84 for a years worth from an Indian website for the actual name brand stuff. To give you an idea, a single vial in the US something like $300.

I appreciate the information, truly. I will look into local clinics. My doctor would only refer to an endo, and the cost of that on a high deductible plan would be in the thousands of dollars a year. I have already checked. There are very limited formularies allowed on my plan as well for testosterone product, so depending on what regimen works, it may not be covered.

 

[touringsedan]

Since exogenous testosterone will shutdown your testes and eventually causes hypogonasim, you might want to try improving your endogenous production first.

Had great luck with Enclomiphene 12.5 daily, tripled my T in a month. You can get it cheap from some peptide suppliers or expensively via compounding.

Enclomiphene also keeps estrogen closer to normal whereas hcg raised mine above normal and then you need an aromatise inhibitor and nothing felt good on that combo.

If you don't like it or it doesn't work, try the next best thing.

 

[touringsedan]

Also, tested reliable gray testosterone shot my T through the roof, so it also worked fine and was dirt cheap.

 

[raw_oyster_eater]

where do they get the T from. pig testicles?

 

[flipout24]

I was previously on a high deductible plan and would use GoodRx to get pricing on the Testosterone itself. I think I was average $35ish for 4 vials, which depending on your dose is 1-2 months worth. You can also use your HSA to pay for it, so tax free makes it "cheaper."

Even if you were to buy gray from an extremely trusted website with good testing, such as Kits4Less, they charge $35 for a single vial.

 

[Morbius]

I'm interested in TRT because I'm old, and who isn't interested in feeling better, but I'm not at all comfortable with doing it myself.

My T level is in the "normal" range and I don't really have symptoms of low T like ED, so my doctor is not really interested in prescribing anything. And I'm not up for monkeying with my hormones myself.

If there were an extremely safe supplement/pep that might help with low risk of downsides, I'd be interested in trying that. Having more energy and executive function would be nice.

 

[flipout24]

I'm interested in TRT because I'm old, and who isn't interested in feeling better, but I'm not at all comfortable with doing it myself.

My T level is in the "normal" range and I don't really have symptoms of low T like ED, so my doctor is not really interested in prescribing anything. And I'm not up for monkeying with my hormones myself.

If there were an extremely safe supplement/pep that might help with low risk of downsides, I'd be interested in trying that. Having more energy and executive function would be nice.

If you only talked to your regular physician they won't usually administer TRT outside of very medically necessary circumstances. If you go to a TRT clinic they will treat individuals in a much higher range. Think 500 or lower rather than 200 or lower.

Enclomiphene will raise it, but like all TRT can have side effects. The best method is TRT subq, combined with HCG to retain testicular function and if necessary a aromatise inhibitor to combat increased estrogen. A proper regiment can get you stable at 800, or wherever you aim to be.

 

[hexagonal]

Test results showed I had a pretty low T level (Total 192 ng/dL). For reference, I am a 42 year old male. My general practitioner is good to proceed with TRT using topicals, or refer to an endocrinologist. The cost of this will be very high and not covered well by my insurance. My doctor is fairly OK with testing whatever I ask him to regularly and knows I take a few off-script peptides already, so I don't feel uncomfortable being vague and telling him I am doing this from some telehealth or medspa and keeping it vague so I can still have regular testing.

I am considering trying the grey market Testosterone Cypionate in a micro-dosing regimen, subcutaneously. I am a bit nervous to do this despite having experimented with several other peptides and analogues. Something about exogenous "replacement". Anyway, I am just wondering if anyone has had the same thoughts or any experience with this?

Topicals suck. Lots of people see their response drop over time, you have to worry about it coming into contact with any women in your life, etc. Definitely recommend going the injectable route whether you end up going through a doctor or UGLs

From the safety of the actual compounds, it's the same story as with the peptides - you want janoshik tests.

 

[hexagonal]

Since exogenous testosterone will shutdown your testes and eventually causes hypogonasim, you might want to try improving your endogenous production first.

Had great luck with Enclomiphene 12.5 daily, tripled my T in a month. You can get it cheap from some peptide suppliers or expensively via compounding.

Enclomiphene also keeps estrogen closer to normal whereas hcg raised mine above normal and then you need an aromatise inhibitor and nothing felt good on that combo.

If you don't like it or it doesn't work, try the next best thing.

I'd avoid SERMs. Enclo and clomiphene protocols are fundamentally based off protocols from the 60s, and Enclo failed to receive approval from the FDA and it's European counterpart because they did not find it to be a good option.


Clomiphene has also been linked to significant adverse effects, and Enclo works in basically the same fashion:

"These adverse effects, including optic neuritis, ischaemic optic neuropathy, central retinal vein occlusion, retinal detachment, and vitreous detachment, in rare cases, have led to reversible or irreversible, partial or complete blindness, even after discontinuation of clomiphene, especially when increasing the dosage or duration of treatment"

"2.3-9% of males develop mood disorders (depression, irritability, mania)
25% of women report severe emotional lability resembling "menopausal psychosis"
Case studies document first-onset manic episodes requiring psychiatric hospitalization
This ER-beta blockade creates artificial estrogen deficiency in key brain regions, exacerbating psychiatric vulnerabilities."

 

[hexagonal]

I was previously on a high deductible plan and would use GoodRx to get pricing on the Testosterone itself. I think I was average $35ish for 4 vials, which depending on your dose is 1-2 months worth. You can also use your HSA to pay for it, so tax free makes it "cheaper."

Even if you were to buy gray from an extremely trusted website with good testing, such as Kits4Less, they charge $35 for a single vial.

Those are 12ml vials at k4l, though. Not sure what the GoodRX vial size is.

My pharma was 4x 1ml vials for $5/mo, so still cheaper, but not as big of a difference as it initially appears.

 

[TetsuNW]

Like others are saying TRT clinic is definitely the way to go. Some will start you in a SARM first but they can guide you. They'll be able to answer questions on HCG, to which they'll probably say "do you plan to have more kids?". I've seen grey vendors prices for T and HCG and SARMs, you are better off with ugl/pct/pharma/India/Hungary type places.

Either way I'd have my bloodwork done (privatemdlabs is who I use) but strongly recommend the clinic. Still do your trt research, have questions ready to go for your appointment, research the protocol they suggest.

Good luck!

I'm not on TRT btw but wnet through the whole process. I decided to wait, no regrets, I feel great and my T was never low.

 

[TetsuNW]

I'd avoid SERMs. Enclo and clomiphene protocols are fundamentally based off protocols from the 60s, and Enclo failed to receive approval from the FDA and it's European counterpart because they did not find it to be a good option.


Clomiphene has also been linked to significant adverse effects, and Enclo works in basically the same fashion:

"These adverse effects, including optic neuritis, ischaemic optic neuropathy, central retinal vein occlusion, retinal detachment, and vitreous detachment, in rare cases, have led to reversible or irreversible, partial or complete blindness, even after discontinuation of clomiphene, especially when increasing the dosage or duration of treatment"

"2.3-9% of males develop mood disorders (depression, irritability, mania)
25% of women report severe emotional lability resembling "menopausal psychosis"
Case studies document first-onset manic episodes requiring psychiatric hospitalization
This ER-beta blockade creates artificial estrogen deficiency in key brain regions, exacerbating psychiatric vulnerabilities."

Lol the clinic I went to wanted to start me on Clomid if I had an issue....I was like mmm I'd rather to monotherapy hcg first if the tests come back low. I never saw that doc again, I liked my original guy but he moved to a different location that was too far.

 

[hexagonal]

Lol the clinic I went to wanted to start me on Clomid if I had an issue....I was like mmm I'd rather to monotherapy hcg first if the tests come back low. I never saw that doc again, I liked my original guy but he moved to a different location that was too far.

Yeah. Quality of care when it comes to this stuff is so low on average. You've got a bunch of docs running on outdated information (We've got mountains of studies with tens of thousands of participants showing no increased risk of cardiovascular issues or prostate cancer, to the point the FDA has removed the warning, but docs are still stuck concerned about these based off of a couple of studies from the 90s, one of which ended up being retracted!), and basically none of them understand the interplay of things like SHBG, etc., beyond the basics. Clinics are full of people wanting to make a quick buck and s ell people the moon and stars.

It's unfortunate because low t sucks and getting things dialed in is such a huge QOL improvement.

 

[TetsuNW]

Right, my primary doc at the time seemed to have it together. We talked about my diet, Keto at the time, he had me start boron to bring down the SHBG... In the end I was not a candidate for trt and he helped me with that. I went back because I was frustrated that I needed to be on top of everything or I feel apart and felt like shit. I was able to learn a large part of that feeling like shit feeling was low carbs, Keto is not for me, I'm not in my 20s.

It's worthwhile to find the right TRT clinic, even if it's far or telemed$

 

[raw_oyster_eater]

i just start injecting things until i get the feel goods.

 

[Mysoph]

FWIW, I am open to telemed if anyone has any suggestions. I do not really want to do topicals or SARMs. I feel comfortable enough with my doctor to tell him just enough to have him guide through the regular testing. But, I worry about how to manage beyond that because he obviously cant fully guide me through alternative means without risk of malpractice at that point.

I guess I will start with a few phone calls or inquiries to clinics near and on the webs. Thanks for the help and convo.