How quickly/slowly are you building your stack?

[HouseCat]

I’ve been on tirz for a few months and after getting into the gray world, I quickly got interested in a lot of other peptides. I have a few on order and am super excited!! I’ve done research about cycles, dosages etc. of my chosen peps so I know (as far as I can find out) that there aren’t dangerous interactions. My plan is to introduce one peptide and then wait a few weeks to see how I react on it, then repeat with others…Although I have to say I am impatient and this sensible plan is going to test me!

How fast are you building your stack? Do you go slow or introduce a bunch of peps at the same time? How has your experience been?

 

[birdwhacker]

I try to do peptides more or less one at a time, but I often make big changes to my vitamin stack without much hurrah. If you don't have a foundation of B vitamins and trace minerals, you ought not even mess around with peptides imo

 

[eidos]

I'm a creature of habit; I learned the principle of the single variable factor in the experimental method in high school, and I stick to it.

Something I've learned to do recently is to juggle with half-lives. And yet, we don't have all the information about the different half-lives: for some substances that enter cells, we don't know how long they stay there.

But based on the available information, I calculate the time it will take to reach a steady state. Until I reach that state with a new peptide, I don't change anything regarding the doses, frequency, or stack.

For example, for products with a half-life of less than a day, it takes a good week. For half-lives on the order of a week, it takes about a month and a half, or two months if you want a little safety margin.

The most commonly cited data on half-lives are averages. Without the standard deviation, they mean nothing. When I dig into the scientific literature, I tend to find data such as: in 95% of patients, the half-life is between 4 and 8 days, with an average of 6 days (guess which peptide this is 😉

We don't have to be too precise, but that doesn't mean we can just do things randomly.
For example, I noticed that hunger returned around the 5th or 6th day with the Reta, and the sunburn returned on the sixth day. I interpret this as a circulating dose equivalent to d+1 and d+6. This is consistent with a rise to peak levels over 2 days and a half-life of more than 7 days in my case. It’s very rough, but sufficient for my purposes. I then decided to stick to 1 pin per week and not go below that.

I see that most people stick strictly to the doses used in the studies (2, 4, 6, etc.). It’s important to understand that these doses are defined pragmatically, based on what is easy for the lab to produce, easy to communicate to the patient, and simple to analyze. Researchers don't like to bother with problems they've created for themselves.

We have no reason to do otherwise. For example, I started with 10 and 20mg vials. I took doses of 2.5, 5, 6.7, and 10. What matters to me is continuous glucose monitoring. I didn't weigh myself very often at first; instead, I measured my waist circumference at the navel. It was more motivating.

For products that lack human clinical studies, such as MOTS-C or 5-amino-1-mq, the challenge is finding the sweet spot dose.

We often see so-called "protocols" circulating that include cycles and time limits, with no scientific basis whatsoever. You'll notice that these often involve expensive products and that users take them for a quick energy boost before working out, not to treat metabolic syndrome, for example. We need to critically evaluate our sources of information.

Another thing to consider is the reconstitution solvent. Some people swear by water with BA by Pfizer. But some other solvents work well, and sometimes even better. I now use 0.9% NaCl for SS31, MOTS-C, and GHK-Cu: it’s isotonic and helps prevent severe reactions at the injection site. I use only sterile water for 5AMQ. That’s more than enough when the pen lasts a week or two. It’s important to know that in some hospital practices, insulin is stored in the fridge in polypropylene syringes for a month or two, and 90% of it remains effective and sterile after three months (the paper is easy to find). I wouldn't do that if I had to produce millions of pre-filled pens that would have to last for months and travel halfway around the world.

Stacking peptides is a little more complicated than stacking crepes. But we also have to avoid lumps, and it’s just as rewarding when it works. Have fun 😉

 

[HouseCat]

I'm a creature of habit; I learned the principle of the single variable factor in the experimental method in high school, and I stick to it.

Something I've learned to do recently is to juggle with half-lives. And yet, we don't have all the information about the different half-lives: for some substances that enter cells, we don't know how long they stay there.

But based on the available information, I calculate the time it will take to reach a steady state. Until I reach that state with a new peptide, I don't change anything regarding the doses, frequency, or stack.

For example, for products with a half-life of less than a day, it takes a good week. For half-lives on the order of a week, it takes about a month and a half, or two months if you want a little safety margin.

The most commonly cited data on half-lives are averages. Without the standard deviation, they mean nothing. When I dig into the scientific literature, I tend to find data such as: in 95% of patients, the half-life is between 4 and 8 days, with an average of 6 days (guess which peptide this is 😉

We don't have to be too precise, but that doesn't mean we can just do things randomly.
For example, I noticed that hunger returned around the 5th or 6th day with the Reta, and the sunburn returned on the sixth day. I interpret this as a circulating dose equivalent to d+1 and d+6. This is consistent with a rise to peak levels over 2 days and a half-life of more than 7 days in my case. It’s very rough, but sufficient for my purposes. I then decided to stick to 1 pin per week and not go below that.

I see that most people stick strictly to the doses used in the studies (2, 4, 6, etc.). It’s important to understand that these doses are defined pragmatically, based on what is easy for the lab to produce, easy to communicate to the patient, and simple to analyze. Researchers don't like to bother with problems they've created for themselves.

We have no reason to do otherwise. For example, I started with 10 and 20mg vials. I took doses of 2.5, 5, 6.7, and 10. What matters to me is continuous glucose monitoring. I didn't weigh myself very often at first; instead, I measured my waist circumference at the navel. It was more motivating.

For products that lack human clinical studies, such as MOTS-C or 5-amino-1-mq, the challenge is finding the sweet spot dose.

We often see so-called "protocols" circulating that include cycles and time limits, with no scientific basis whatsoever. You'll notice that these often involve expensive products and that users take them for a quick energy boost before working out, not to treat metabolic syndrome, for example. We need to critically evaluate our sources of information.

Another thing to consider is the reconstitution solvent. Some people swear by water with BA by Pfizer. But some other solvents work well, and sometimes even better. I now use 0.9% NaCl for SS31, MOTS-C, and GHK-Cu: it’s isotonic and helps prevent severe reactions at the injection site. I use only sterile water for 5AMQ. That’s more than enough when the pen lasts a week or two. It’s important to know that in some hospital practices, insulin is stored in the fridge in polypropylene syringes for a month or two, and 90% of it remains effective and sterile after three months (the paper is easy to find). I wouldn't do that if I had to produce millions of pre-filled pens that would have to last for months and travel halfway around the world.

Stacking peptides is a little more complicated than stacking crepes. But we also have to avoid lumps, and it’s just as rewarding when it works. Have fun 😉

Wow-thank you for this amazing and very detailed post. I actually have MOTS-C, NAD+ and SS-31 on order now, and will certainly look into NaCl for reconstituting. I was reading an article about it the other day but didn’t really absorb the info. Good reminder to circle back on that.

Also appreciate the info about how to introduce stack peptides based on the half life. Sci-hub, here I come! Every time I think my spreadsheets are complete, I learn a new way to make it more complete—many thanks!

You also (inadvertently) helped me to slow down my need for speed stack wise. I have a lot of things coming, so going slowly will not only curb my spending but also allow some time to see what other folks’ tests/experiences with my stock items are.

 

[Mochizuki0124]

I started with KLOW (post surgery)

After 1 month I started Reta

After 1 month I started Glutathione and Sermorelin

After 1 month I started Epitalon

 

[Flash-BCR]

Wow-thank you for this amazing and very detailed post. I actually have MOTS-C, NAD+ and SS-31 on order now, and will certainly look into NaCl for reconstituting. I was reading an article about it the other day but didn’t really absorb the info. Good reminder to circle back on that.

Also appreciate the info about how to introduce stack peptides based on the half life. Sci-hub, here I come! Every time I think my spreadsheets are complete, I learn a new way to make it more complete—many thanks!

You also (inadvertently) helped me to slow down my need for speed stack wise. I have a lot of things coming, so going slowly will not only curb my spending but also allow some time to see what other folks’ tests/experiences with my stock items are.

I have Mots, NAD and SS31 on hand too...Probably run a protocol this Fall...I have mega Hospira, but I think I will pickup some NaCL as well... 👍

 

[surfingturts]

I started with Reta and decided GHK would be a good addition to mitigate any possibility of loose skin.

Did that for about 3 months and kept lurking on these forums.

Ended up experimenting with a single vial of NA Semax and decided to make that a daily. Bought a kit a couple weeks later.

I think I'll be sticking to 3 for the time being. Pinning twice a day and thrice on my two reta days... That's enough for me.

 

[ThunderBird]

I'm a creature of habit; I learned the principle of the single variable factor in the experimental method in high school, and I stick to it.

Something I've learned to do recently is to juggle with half-lives. And yet, we don't have all the information about the different half-lives: for some substances that enter cells, we don't know how long they stay there.

But based on the available information, I calculate the time it will take to reach a steady state. Until I reach that state with a new peptide, I don't change anything regarding the doses, frequency, or stack.

For example, for products with a half-life of less than a day, it takes a good week. For half-lives on the order of a week, it takes about a month and a half, or two months if you want a little safety margin.

The most commonly cited data on half-lives are averages. Without the standard deviation, they mean nothing. When I dig into the scientific literature, I tend to find data such as: in 95% of patients, the half-life is between 4 and 8 days, with an average of 6 days (guess which peptide this is 😉

We don't have to be too precise, but that doesn't mean we can just do things randomly.
For example, I noticed that hunger returned around the 5th or 6th day with the Reta, and the sunburn returned on the sixth day. I interpret this as a circulating dose equivalent to d+1 and d+6. This is consistent with a rise to peak levels over 2 days and a half-life of more than 7 days in my case. It’s very rough, but sufficient for my purposes. I then decided to stick to 1 pin per week and not go below that.

I see that most people stick strictly to the doses used in the studies (2, 4, 6, etc.). It’s important to understand that these doses are defined pragmatically, based on what is easy for the lab to produce, easy to communicate to the patient, and simple to analyze. Researchers don't like to bother with problems they've created for themselves.

We have no reason to do otherwise. For example, I started with 10 and 20mg vials. I took doses of 2.5, 5, 6.7, and 10. What matters to me is continuous glucose monitoring. I didn't weigh myself very often at first; instead, I measured my waist circumference at the navel. It was more motivating.

For products that lack human clinical studies, such as MOTS-C or 5-amino-1-mq, the challenge is finding the sweet spot dose.

We often see so-called "protocols" circulating that include cycles and time limits, with no scientific basis whatsoever. You'll notice that these often involve expensive products and that users take them for a quick energy boost before working out, not to treat metabolic syndrome, for example. We need to critically evaluate our sources of information.

Another thing to consider is the reconstitution solvent. Some people swear by water with BA by Pfizer. But some other solvents work well, and sometimes even better. I now use 0.9% NaCl for SS31, MOTS-C, and GHK-Cu: it’s isotonic and helps prevent severe reactions at the injection site. I use only sterile water for 5AMQ. That’s more than enough when the pen lasts a week or two. It’s important to know that in some hospital practices, insulin is stored in the fridge in polypropylene syringes for a month or two, and 90% of it remains effective and sterile after three months (the paper is easy to find). I wouldn't do that if I had to produce millions of pre-filled pens that would have to last for months and travel halfway around the world.

Stacking peptides is a little more complicated than stacking crepes. But we also have to avoid lumps, and it’s just as rewarding when it works. Have fun 😉

This may be a few stupid questions but I've looked at the NaCl Hospira (im assuming that is what you are specifically talking about in your reference to solvents) for a long long time and I haven't found a enough good reason to buy it, but that may have been partially from the fact that this isn't a community of chemist and more a community of lab rats.

#1 does this reduce the shelf life at all of something like GHK-cu or would it Extend the shelf life of something protentional

#2 when you are looking at compatibility of peptides with the NaCl what would be 3 characteristics that you would look at to determine this ex Shelf life? PH? chain length?

#3 if you could link sources or video explaining either a study or a general principle of chemistry that this would relate I would love to read to listen to something on this topic. it has been a two years since I've taken my last college chem class and i feel like this is something I should either A already have some sort of background in or B at a minimum be able to pick up. I bet there's a Organic Chem tutor Video on a topic like this I just couldn't find the right keywords to search.

 

[HouseCat]

This may be a few stupid questions but I've looked at the NaCl Hospira (im assuming that is what you are specifically talking about in your reference to solvents) for a long long time and I haven't found a enough good reason to buy it, but that may have been partially from the fact that this isn't a community of chemist and more a community of lab rats.

#1 does this reduce the shelf life at all of something like GHK-cu or would it Extend the shelf life of something protentional

#2 when you are looking at compatibility of peptides with the NaCl what would be 3 characteristics that you would look at to determine this ex Shelf life? PH? chain length?

#3 if you could link sources or video explaining either a study or a general principle of chemistry that this would relate I would love to read to listen to something on this topic. it has been a two years since I've taken my last college chem class and i feel like this is something I should either A already have some sort of background in or B at a minimum be able to pick up. I bet there's an Organic Chem tutor Video on a topic like this I just couldn't find the right keywords to search.

One thing that’s been a nice boon to going gray is getting back into science. Lots of cobwebs I’ve got to dust off, and lots to learn. Good questions here.

 

[eidos]

This may be a few stupid questions but I've looked at the NaCl Hospira (im assuming that is what you are specifically talking about in your reference to solvents) for a long long time and I haven't found a enough good reason to buy it, but that may have been partially from the fact that this isn't a community of chemist and more a community of lab rats.

#1 does this reduce the shelf life at all of something like GHK-cu or would it Extend the shelf life of something protentional

#2 when you are looking at compatibility of peptides with the NaCl what would be 3 characteristics that you would look at to determine this ex Shelf life? PH? chain length?

#3 if you could link sources or video explaining either a study or a general principle of chemistry that this would relate I would love to read to listen to something on this topic. it has been a two years since I've taken my last college chem class and i feel like this is something I should either A already have some sort of background in or B at a minimum be able to pick up. I bet there's a Organic Chem tutor Video on a topic like this I just couldn't find the right keywords to search.

As the philosopher's mother used to say: "Stupid is as stupid does".
And learning is never stupid.

I'm not talking about a solvent with BA. I'm talking about injectable saline solution containing 0.9% NaCl. This is the standard isotonic solution used for injectable medications in France. Benzyl alcohol is not found in any products other than skin disinfectant sprays (e.g., Biseptine; https://www.vidal.fr/medicaments/substances/alcool-benzylique-212.html)

On YouTube, I tend to watch videos of the guy who managed to maintain equilibrium around the triple point (solid, liquid, and gas) or the walk of the kinesin (my favorite protein 🙂. Certainly not those of the not-a-real-doctor-DCs. Nor those with a lot of placebo storytelling: I almost got fooled during my first quarter at college, and I won't let that happen again.

You can find the basics on Khan Academy: https://www.khanacademy.org/science/chemistry

And two or three “101” courses on Coursera:

Introduction to Chemistry: Structures and Solutions

Offered by Duke University. This is an introductory course for students with limited background in chemistry; basic concepts such as atomic ... Enroll for free.

www.coursera.org

Introduction to Chemistry: Reactions and Ratios

Offered by Duke University. This is an introductory course for students with limited background in chemistry; basic concepts involved in ... Enroll for free.

www.coursera.org

I don't know what you'll get out of two 20h courses; it took me longer than that. As one of my professors said: « I understand quickly, but you'll have to explain it to me for a long time. »

Are we both clear that when you say “shelf life,” you're talking about the fridge?

I use up a vial of GHKCu in 20 days. It should be fine, but it’s a bit of a gamble. Cuprate ions have antifungal activity (that’s what they put on grapevines or organic potatoes), but very little antibacterial or antiviral activity. I do this mainly to avoid reactions at the injection site. If you really want peace of mind, it's best to use BA NaCl with the GHK (there's another thread that covers this topic in detail).

I don't do that with Tirz or Reta. The Mounjaro buffer is phosphate with NaCl, a little benzyl alcohol and phenol, plus other ingredients to stabilize it (probably to reduce adsorption on the pen's plastic walls). I'm just imitating the experts. I'll try making a phosphate buffer when I switch to the 60 mg vials.

When a solution is slightly ionic, it can improve solubility; when it is too ionic, it can cause precipitation. This is mainly due to hydrophobic bonds in the case of Reta.

When aseptic conditions are met during reconstitution and drawing, the risk of contamination is greatly reduced. It’s not zero, just less likely. By drawing from the stopper three or four times a month at home, we’re far from the risks of a hospital environment full of nasty germs (but Pseudomonas are everywhere and Staph from our skin might be tough). I think we need to maintain flawless asepsis practices. I've had the opportunity to express my views on the thoughtless comments made by some people in other threads. Lots of John Snow...

As for pH, the closer it is to physiological levels, the better. Tirz isoelectric point is published in the patents, while Reta’s is listed as “less than 6.5,” which is rather vague. But we can see that Hospira, at 5.7 when it’s fresh, works well. The problem over time (more than 6-8 weeks, according to some “bro” tests) is the drift over pH 8, which causes deamidation. The cascading problem is that no one knows whether biological activity is maintained or whether there is toxicity.

One difference (not the only one) between peptides and small proteins is that peptides are too short to have a stable quaternary structure. Salinity will therefore not irreversibly change their shape. It would take a while to explain these kinds of structures: it took several dozen hours in the biochemistry program, which included studying hemoglobin to understand it.

There's a course on the principles of biochemistry on EdX/HarvardX, but I can't find the syllabus. https://www.edx.org/learn/biochemistry/harvard-university-principles-of-biochemistry

If you were to judge stupidity as the inverse of the length of my answer, you'd see that your questions weren't stupid at all 🙂