Just to confirm, sorry...

[esdsafepoet]

Please help calm my first-time paranoia...

I've only ever used pens from a pharmacy before. Been splitting them to save money, but after researching some here, the savings looks much better.

Thinking of pulling the trigger on the 15mg vials here: https://nexaph.com/product/tirzepatide/

A couple things I wanted to confirm/be certain of before I do:

1) I get 10 15mg vials for about $200? That seems wild. I'm currently paying way more for 4 15mg pens.
2) The photo on the site doesn't show the volume, but I dilute this with bac water just the same as I would the pens, right? No other hidden steps I'm unaware of as this is basically the same chemical?

Thanks.

 

[Skidude]

Please help calm my first-time paranoia...

I've only ever used pens from a pharmacy before. Been splitting them to save money, but after researching some here, the savings looks much better.

Thinking of pulling the trigger on the 15mg vials here: https://nexaph.com/product/tirzepatide/

A couple things I wanted to confirm/be certain of before I do:

1) I get 10 15mg vials for about $200? That seems wild. I'm currently paying way more for 4 15mg pens.
2) The photo on the site doesn't show the volume, but I dilute this with bac water just the same as I would the pens, right? No other hidden steps I'm unaware of as this is basically the same chemical?

Thanks.

1, yes 10 vials of 15mg (freeze dried/lyophilized powder) total 150mg Tirz
2, yes needs to be reconstituted with BAC water to your dosing requirement REVERSE CALCULATOR
Other potential step is filtering

 

[esdsafepoet]

Interesting. I don't have syringe filters specifically, but I do have BD filter needles. Could I use a filter needle to extract the reconstituted peptide solution, then swap out to a regular needle to push into the new vial? I know syringe filters do a higher level of filtration than filter needles, but would 5 microns be sufficient?

 

[m100568]

After 10 months on grey I still double-check with a peptide calculator. Just in case I'm distracted or half asleep. How much BAC you want to add depends upon how much BAC you want to inject. Most people don't want to inject more than 100 units on the syringe, which would require a larger than standard syringe, or taking 2 shots. If you are on a 15mg dose of Tirz you can, for example, use .75ml to inject 75 units.

Some people have asked just how concentrated you can make it. EL has all of its doses inject .5ml, even the 15mg dose. That should give you an idea of how concentrated the company thinks is safe.

Just play around with a peptide calculator and you will catch on quickly.

 

[esdsafepoet]

I'm not too worried about the math of mixing it, but I did not know about the filtration step since it's not something I've had to do when diluting the pens. Guess I best acquire some actual syringe filters. My filter needles are probably not good enough.

 

[nonyabizznez]

I'm not too worried about the math of mixing it, but I did not know about the filtration step since it's not something I've had to do when diluting the pens. Guess I best acquire some actual syringe filters. My filter needles are probably not good enough.

As someone who filters (immuno compromised) the overwhelming majority don't. There's good arguments filtering increases exposure, possible contamination.

I'm not inviting a rehash (search filtering)... Just letting you know you're fine reconstituting the vials you receive and applying some common sense math to your dosing.

 

[esdsafepoet]

Made my first order, will see how it goes.

According to my Fluke 179 temp probe, my mini freezer gets to around -16C, so hopefully good enough. My plan is to put the vials in a Pelican 1120, then stick them in the mini freezer. Hopefully they'll last at least 1-2 years in there.

Goddamn it's involved to try to save money, but given how much Mounjaro costs at the pharmacy, there's a lot of latitude. I could even get this: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CF5J3F79 and still come out ahead after a few months.

 

[AKC97]

Made my first order, will see how it goes.

According to my Fluke 179 temp probe, my mini freezer gets to around -16C, so hopefully good enough. My plan is to put the vials in a Pelican 1120, then stick them in the mini freezer. Hopefully they'll last at least 1-2 years in there.

Goddamn it's involved to try to save money, but given how much Mounjaro costs at the pharmacy, there's a lot of latitude. I could even get this: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CF5J3F79 and still come out ahead after a few months.

Sorry to jack your thread, but does anyone have the link for where Jano said this wasn't necessary?

 

[AKC97]

1, yes 10 vials of 15mg (freeze dried/lyophilized powder) total 150mg Tirz
2, yes needs to be reconstituted with BAC water to your dosing requirement REVERSE CALCULATOR
Other potential step is filtering

Out of curiosity, and because they also sell needles and filters, did you think it was a little overkill on how many supplies were used?

 

[esdsafepoet]

Out of curiosity, and because they also sell needles and filters, did you think it was a little overkill on how many supplies were used?

It seemed reasonable to me. One needle to inject bac water into the vial, same needle used to draw reconstituted solution out because no need to swap at this point. Then filter attached with new needle since we're now sending filtered solution through and we'd want a sterile needle for that, and into a new sterile vial. Didn't seem excessive.

 

[ZippityDooDah]

Out of curiosity, and because they also sell needles and filters, did you think it was a little overkill on how many supplies were used?

Personally I've never been a fan of Peptide Test. They started out really rough which is not a huge deal, but their front-facing guy came across as really smarmy and untrustworthy plus they had some pretty public head-to-head testing failures and really never adequately addressed them IMHO.

I don't recall the exact details because it was a while ago now, but I was one of the first ones to start encouraging filtering for people concerned about possible contaminants after several troubling test results from certain vendors. As that discussion developed a lot of people much smarter than me chimed in with recommendations regarding the process and best practices, filter specifications, etc. and one of the things pretty universally accepted is that .22μm 13mm PES filters were the preferred size and type for most peptides.

At some point not long after those discussions, the PT folks branched out into selling supplies (apparently they weren't making enough money with testing). Coincidentally one of their first products was 4mm filters (which are extremely uncommon in sterile 0.22μm PES) and they began evangelizing them as the ideal size. My assumption is that they found a source that was selling them at a huge discount so they bought a ton of them and that's when they began pushing 4mm filters hard.

Anyway, I haven't watched their video linked above, but it wouldn't surprise me if it was designed to be as much of a sales pitch for their supplies as "educational". I recommend anyone interested in learning about filtering to watch more videos from multiple sources to get as full of a picture as possible. I'd be far more inclined to trust videos where the folks behind it aren't trying to sell you something.

 

[Calm Logic]

If I had to do without, the vent filter used in the video and written instructions would be the first to go:

Using a second filter on the vent needle is news to me. (Not shown in video but in the written directions). I may be cynical but video source sells filters.

I filter the liquid entering the vial but won't be using a 2nd filter on the vent where only air passes (I assume exiting). Not because I'm cheap but because I don't see the sense in it.

OTOH:

Harm Reduction - Still Air Box

Oct 6, 2024

Lately I have seen lots of talk about filtering but one thing I have not seen is discussion of the use of a still air box to reduce chance of contamination during the process. In many discussions and videos they talk about wiping down the area and wearing gloves etc. The reality is the most likely source of contamination is the air while the needle is exposed and going into the vial assuming you follow good technique and don't touch dirty to clean.

Ideally we would work in a laminar flow hood. These can be made or procured for a few hundred $ to couple grand. However we can greatly...

• IGezs
• Replies: 14
• Forum: Public Square

• 
• 

Wanna talk about overkill? I recently bought a 1k laminar flow hood off Alibaba - try to beat that 🤣

 

[esdsafepoet]

Interestingly I couldn't find the exact 4mm filters peptidetest sells on Tisch's website. Sterile, PES hydrophilic, 0.22, 4mm. Closest I could find was these:

PTFE Syringe Filters, Hydrophilic, 0.22um, 4mm, Luer-Lok/Luer Slip, Sterile, 100 /Pk

Check out the deal on PTFE Syringe Filters, Hydrophilic, 0.22um, 4mm, Luer-Lok/Luer Slip, Sterile, 100 /Pk at Tisch Scientific

www.tischscientific.com

So maybe Tisch discontinued them, and then as was speculated, that enabled peptidetest to buy them up cheaper?

I like the idea of using 4mm filters though because that's less volume waste.

 

[Superfluous]

It seemed reasonable to me. One needle to inject bac water into the vial, same needle used to draw reconstituted solution out because no need to swap at this point. Then filter attached with new needle since we're now sending filtered solution through and we'd want a sterile needle for that, and into a new sterile vial. Didn't seem excessive.

If you're like me then eventually it will become a chore to do this regularly. I'm dosing 7.5mg Tirz every 5 days - now I just fill a pen cartridge with 75mg in 3ml bac water, so a single pen refill lasts me 50 days. It's almost as convenient as the real thing now and the pen needles are so much easier/less painful to work with.

Some people will advise that you should only keep around 30 days of reconstituted peps, but I've been keeping mine in the fridge and I've not noticed any degradation. The official Mounjaro pens can last up to 2 years in the fridge too, so I'm not stressing about it (even if there is the chance they put extra preservatives in there).

 

[esdsafepoet]

If you're like me then eventually it will become a chore to do this regularly. I'm dosing 7.5mg Tirz every 5 days - now I just fill a pen cartridge with 75mg in 3ml bac water, so a single pen refill lasts me 50 days. It's almost as convenient as the real thing now and the pen needles are so much easier/less painful to work with.

Some people will advise that you should only keep around 30 days of reconstituted peps, but I've been keeping mine in the fridge and I've not noticed any degradation. The official Mounjaro pens can last up to 2 years in the fridge too, so I'm not stressing about it (even if there is the chance they put extra preservatives in there).

Currently I transfer an auto-injector pen to an empty vial every couple weeks, so it hasn't felt too tedious. Would be roughly the same schedule with the vials I ordered.

I've seen some folks on here say they dose every 5 days. Is that pretty common? I've been debating on whether to do 7.5mg/7days or maybe try 5mg/5days.

 

[Calm Logic]

If you're like me then eventually it will become a chore to do this regularly. I'm dosing 7.5mg Tirz every 5 days - now I just fill a pen cartridge with 75mg in 3ml bac water, so a single pen refill lasts me 50 days. It's almost as convenient as the real thing now and the pen needles are so much easier/less painful to work with.

Some people will advise that you should only keep around 30 days of reconstituted peps, but I've been keeping mine in the fridge and I've not noticed any degradation. The official Mounjaro pens can last up to 2 years in the fridge too, so I'm not stressing about it (even if there is the chance they put extra preservatives in there).

Bingo. That's why we aren't as crazy as we seem 🙃

 

[PurpleCatFur]

Sorry to jack your thread, but does anyone have the link for where Jano said this wasn't necessary?

There are several Jano interviews out there but this one talks about GH degradation and how it is much more stable than initially thought and gets into peptides toward the middle. A lot of this interview is about purity, peds testing, and touches on technical topics but not super deep.

Jano also participates in a few Discords, this snippet is from late 2024 when there was some degraded reta and potential causes for what took a bit to determine what was pushing the purity lower in the tests, I believe the conclusion was not related to storage rather degraded raws prior to lyophilization but don't quote me on that, digging thru discord history is problematic w/ comments and users deleting messages if they are not agreed with. These are taken from the round table, usernames redacted but not relevant, these are public messages if you want to find them yourself

From Oct 2024

 

[PickleRN]

As a nurse who has drawn up thousands of injections over the past 20 years, the main reason to use a filter needle is if you’re drawing up from an ampule or reconstituting for IV or IM injections. I don’t use filter needles. One piece of advice I would give is don’t use the same needle you punctured the vial with to inject yourself with. There is always the risk of injecting a piece of the rubber stopper into your skin which may lead to localized infection or scar tissue formation.
Otherwise, use good hand hygiene. Keep the area that you are drawing up and transferring clean. And remember that you are doing this in your home. The risk for infection primarily comes from your hands. Your body is already used to the environmental microbes around you. Which is why people can do IV antibiotics at home without all of the required sterile preparation that’s done in a hospital.

 

[Superfluous]

Currently I transfer an auto-injector pen to an empty vial every couple weeks, so it hasn't felt too tedious. Would be roughly the same schedule with the vials I ordered.

I've seen some folks on here say they dose every 5 days. Is that pretty common? I've been debating on whether to do 7.5mg/7days or maybe try 5mg/5days.

It's fairly common here for Tirz yeah, because the half life of Tirz is 5 days. Some people including myself tend to hungry in the last couple of days of a 7 day routine.

You can plot out your dosses here to see what your bloody concentration will get to on either routine

Check out my protocol on GLP-1 Plotter!

Click to reveal my protocol or plot your own dose graphs for Semaglutide (Ozempic/Wegovy/Rybelsus) or Tirzepatide (Mounjaro).

glp1plotter.com

 

[ZippityDooDah]

I like the idea of using 4mm filters though because that's less volume waste.

IMHO that's one of those things so insignificant that it's mind-bottling to watch people get excessively concerned about and is kind of a red herring if you ask me. We're talking such tiny fractions that the general public doesn't even have the ability to measure unless they work in a lab. You'll lose more volume due to surface tension on the interior glass of a vial than the difference between a 4mm and 13mm filter.

 

[AKC97]

There are several Jano interviews out there but this one talks about GH degradation and how it is much more stable than initially thought and gets into peptides toward the middle. A lot of this interview is about purity, peds testing, and touches on technical topics but not super deep.

Jano also participates in a few Discords, this snippet is from late 2024 when there was some degraded reta and potential causes for what took a bit to determine what was pushing the purity lower in the tests, I believe the conclusion was not related to storage rather degraded raws prior to lyophilization but don't quote me on that, digging thru discord history is problematic w/ comments and users deleting messages if they are not agreed with. These are taken from the round table, usernames redacted but not relevant, these are public messages if you want to find them yourself

View attachment 7128

From Oct 2024
View attachment 7129

This is excellent information and I'm looking forward to watching the video. Thank you 🙏

 

[esdsafepoet]

IMHO that's one of those things so insignificant that it's mind-bottling to watch people get excessively concerned about and is kind of a red herring if you ask me. We're talking such tiny fractions that the general public doesn't even have the ability to measure unless they work in a lab. You'll lose more volume due to surface tension on the interior glass of a vial than the difference between a 4mm and 13mm filter.

Maybe I found some bad information, but I read that I'd lose 0.1-0.15mL on a 13mm filter. When I'm dealing with volumes of 1mL, that's 10-15%, which isn't negligible.

 

[nonyabizznez]

If I had to do without, the vent filter used in the video and written instructions would be the first to go:


OTOH:

Harm Reduction - Still Air Box

Oct 6, 2024

Lately I have seen lots of talk about filtering but one thing I have not seen is discussion of the use of a still air box to reduce chance of contamination during the process. In many discussions and videos they talk about wiping down the area and wearing gloves etc. The reality is the most likely source of contamination is the air while the needle is exposed and going into the vial assuming you follow good technique and don't touch dirty to clean.

Ideally we would work in a laminar flow hood. These can be made or procured for a few hundred $ to couple grand. However we can greatly...

• IGezs
• Replies: 14
• Forum: Public Square

• 
• 

Thanks for digging up my quote which I stand by. I think the 2nd filter on the vent instruction is an attempt at selling twice as many filters.

 

[Calm Logic]

I've seen some folks on here say they dose every 5 days. Is that pretty common? I've been debating on whether to do 7.5mg/7days or maybe try 5mg/5days.

Yes, from what I have read here.

(I would rather just up the weekly dose, even above 15 mg if necessary.)

 

[Calm Logic]

Thanks for digging up my quote which I stand by. I think the 2nd filter on the vent instruction is an attempt at selling twice as many filters.

I can almost get Google Gemini to completely agree with you:

If you're working with very small volumes of peptide solution in tightly sealed vials or tubes, the surface area exposed to the air is minimal, and the risk of contamination or moisture absorption might be considered low enough to forgo a dedicated vent filter.

I'll skip it next time, which was my instinct when I first saw the video.

 

[zpped]

Interesting. I don't have syringe filters specifically, but I do have BD filter needles. Could I use a filter needle to extract the reconstituted peptide solution, then swap out to a regular needle to push into the new vial? I know syringe filters do a higher level of filtration than filter needles, but would 5 microns be sufficient?

5 microns is not sufficient for bacteria.

According to my Fluke 179 temp probe, my mini freezer gets to around -16C, so hopefully good enough. My plan is to put the vials in a Pelican 1120, then stick them in the mini freezer. Hopefully they'll last at least 1-2 years in there.

Colder is better but you're over thinking this one. Tirz is incredibly hardy and would do just fine in your cupboard for a few years.

I can almost get Google Gemini to completely agree with you:

I'll skip it next time, which was my instinct when I first saw the video.

It's overkill but it's not made up. SOP for pharmacies is to use a vent needle with filter.

 

[esdsafepoet]

5 microns is not sufficient for bacteria.


Colder is better but you're over thinking this one. Tirz is incredibly hardy and would do just fine in your cupboard for a few years.

Ya, I ordered some of the 22 micron filters, and am looking into centrifuges now for virus filtration. This is a fun little rabbithole.

It's hard to get a feel for just how well tirz holds up. So many different and contradicting bits of information I've found on it.

 

[zpped]

Ya, I ordered some of the 22 micron filters, and am looking into centrifuges now for virus filtration. This is a fun little rabbithole.

It's hard to get a feel for just how well tirz holds up. So many different and contradicting bits of information I've found on it.

I'm going to assume the centrifuge is a joke but you can't ever tell around here.

Yeah, there are a lot of people that confidently repeat things that they don't know anything about (and are wrong). It's usually an issue of not understanding the nuance. But I can tell you I've personally seen the test results of a vial of tirz stored in a closet for a year and a half and it was fine.

 

[esdsafepoet]

I'm going to assume the centrifuge is a joke but you can't ever tell around here.

You're the second person who said that, I'm not sure why. The 0.22 micron filters can't get everything, especially viruses, and we're dealing with gray market products. So why is it such a crazy idea?

As an alternative to centrifuges for virus filtration, I also found these:

https://www.sigmaaldrich.com/US/en/product/aldrich/wha68093102

0.02 micron with prefilter for larger particles. Most viruses are larger than 20nm, so should filter them out.

 

[zpped]

You're the second person who said that, I'm not sure why. The 0.22 micron filters can't get everything, especially viruses, and we're dealing with gray market products. So why is it such a crazy idea?

As an alternative to centrifuges for virus filtration, I also found these:

https://www.sigmaaldrich.com/US/en/product/aldrich/wha68093102

0.02 micron with prefilter for larger particles. Most viruses are larger than 20nm, so should filter them out.

What virus are you concerned about that would survive in large enough numbers to cause you issues that wouldn't also just be in the air in what ever room you're injecting in? If you have a specific concern, I might be able to find someone with expertise who can address it.

I mean, you do you. But there are 10s of thousands of people injecting this stuff every day without any filter.

 

[esdsafepoet]

What virus are you concerned about that would survive in large enough numbers to cause you issues that wouldn't also just be in the air in what ever room you're injecting in? If you have a specific concern, I might be able to find someone with expertise who can address it.

I mean, you do you. But there are 10s of thousands of people injecting this stuff every day without any filter.

Not a particular virus, but just general QC concern. Plus some pathogens can take a long time to show themselves.

A few thoughts on this whole filtration rabbithole:

1) As someone relatively new to this, it’s hard to know what’s truly necessary. What would help ease that uncertainty is some kind of consistent voice from the community—but that’s not what I’m seeing. After doing my homework, comparing vendors, and placing an order based on what seemed to be a solid reputation, I then came across threads harshly criticizing that same vendor. The level of disagreement makes it tough to know who or what to trust, and as a newcomer, I can’t assume that any advice is universally reliable.

2) This is, at the end of the day, gray market territory. We don’t really know what’s in some of these products. There have already been reports of contamination, which makes it clear that proper handling isn’t guaranteed. With that in mind, I see little downside to exploring extra precautions.

3) When you compare the cost of peptides through a U.S. pharmacy to the cost of basic lab equipment, the equipment starts to look like a pretty modest investment. I've already spent thousands at my local pharmacy, and if I’d taken this route earlier, I could’ve had a solid setup by now. Plus, much of that gear is a one-time purchase—not a recurring cost.

I’m not saying any of this is necessary. I’m just acknowledging that I don’t know for sure—and with all the conflicting opinions I see, it’s hard to rely on anything but my own judgment.

 

[PurpleCatFur]

At what point do we filter out the peptide we are seeking?

as of a few months ago Jano stated he uses 0.22um and TrustPointe uses 0.45um filters for HPLC testing to prevent damage to their equipment.

 

[zpped]

At what point do we filter out the peptide we are seeking?

as of a few months ago Jano stated he uses 0.22um and TrustPointe uses 0.45um filters for HPLC testing to prevent damage to their equipment.

Tirz is roughly 5kDalton which is roughly 1nm (0.001um)

 

[zpped]

Not a particular virus, but just general QC concern. Plus some pathogens can take a long time to show themselves.

A few thoughts on this whole filtration rabbithole:

1) As someone relatively new to this, it’s hard to know what’s truly necessary. What would help ease that uncertainty is some kind of consistent voice from the community—but that’s not what I’m seeing. After doing my homework, comparing vendors, and placing an order based on what seemed to be a solid reputation, I then came across threads harshly criticizing that same vendor. The level of disagreement makes it tough to know who or what to trust, and as a newcomer, I can’t assume that any advice is universally reliable.

2) This is, at the end of the day, gray market territory. We don’t really know what’s in some of these products. There have already been reports of contamination, which makes it clear that proper handling isn’t guaranteed. With that in mind, I see little downside to exploring extra precautions.

3) When you compare the cost of peptides through a U.S. pharmacy to the cost of basic lab equipment, the equipment starts to look like a pretty modest investment. I've already spent thousands at my local pharmacy, and if I’d taken this route earlier, I could’ve had a solid setup by now. Plus, much of that gear is a one-time purchase—not a recurring cost.

I’m not saying any of this is necessary. I’m just acknowledging that I don’t know for sure—and with all the conflicting opinions I see, it’s hard to rely on anything but my own judgment.

No, I understand where you're coming from. Which is why I'm trying to ask pointed questions to help you think about it.

1) Agreement is never going to happen. And you shouldn't take everything I say at face value either. The best thing you can do is ask someone WHY are you stating something. What knowledge or experience are they basing it on. I'm an engineer not a medical professional. What I will tell you, is you've just barely started to scratch the surface of this community.

2) Agreed, but some kinds of contamination are more likely than others. Also, what is the consequences different kinds of contamination. What about heavy metals, what about endotoxins. (These are also not a concern, but at some point you should learn why they aren't)

3) It definitely feels that way when you're getting started. But I also don't believe in spending money for no good reason. (And I'm one of the rare few around here that could easily afford to pay full pharma prices)

To put it in perspective, I think most of the experts would liken using a centrifuge to walking through the park with a motorcycle helmet on. Are you safer? Theoretically...