Overfill — a good or bad thing?

[Dee X]

I've only been here about two and a half months and I'm feeling this too. Pretty sure the member count has almost doubled in that time. At least 400 new members in the last few weeks. The main reasons this became my favorite forum was the fact that everyone here had at least a remedial understanding of how this world works and I was actually able to learn without having to scroll through countless "why is there powder in my vial" and so on.

Not that I have an issue with this forum gaining traction in general. I just hope that all the new members do some reading before immediately posting questions.

Still better than Reddit doom-scrolling:

"I haven't pooped in 3 weeks, should I see a doctor?"

"Are GLP1s cheating?"

"It's 3 am and I can't sleep, I drank 3 liters of vodka and ate 7 cheeseburgers last night... Now I am pooping my brains out. Is my Ozempic dosage too high?"

 

[Bacchus]

Personally I'm starting to think that the value of third party testing is overrated. All it does is verify that what you bought is what you think it is, how pure the peptide is, and how much peptide a vial contains. What it doesn't tell you are the things people really want to know from a harm reduction standpoint, like what other (potentially hazardous) substances are in the vial. Yes, there have been instances where a vial contained a different peptide than what was ordered (there's a current example of this happening with a recent GB), but how common is that? Yes, there have been instances of drastic over or under fill (under means you're getting ripped off, but it's not dangerous. Most overfills aren't going to be dangerous either) but how common are those instances? I guess I'm just not 100% convinced that it's as necessary as many make it out to be

The willingness the vendor has to jump through some hoops, makes a difference even if the test doesn’t really hold that much value.

And the part you are forgetting, is that the grey market is the grey market.

Since there usually are a few links in the chain before you get your product. There is a chance the vendor doesn’t know what they are sending if they don’t do routine tests.

And if you go look for vendors in Facebook groups, I doubt you’ll need to do a lot of orders before you start looking for vendors with lab tests again.

The insistence on testing, and people doing their own tests, group buys doing tests etc probably helps keep more vendors honest too.

So, are the tests necessary - probably not. But for any vendor buying batches at a decent size, the test cost Isn’t exactly high per tested vial

 

[zpped]

The amo test with the wide range of fill is not typical from a batch

I think this is a weird interpretation of the results of that test. The average fill was within about 1% of the target and they were all within about 5%. These are pretty great results.

 

[Broken Chef]

I think this is a weird interpretation of the results of that test. The average fill was within about 1% of the target and they were all within about 5%. These are pretty great results.

Maybe we are talking about 2 different tests - If I recall correctly, the T60 ranged from like 55 to 64 - That's about a 17% swing from one side to the other. Sure, the average is good, but if your vial tested at 55, your kit is potentially 50mg short... almost an entire vial worth. I wouldn't call that great by any stretch of the imagination when other batch tests are generally within a gram or two, and usually all to one side of the fill.

It's also an inaccurate representation because there is a good chance the 20 people who put in got product from different batches. You cant take an average across multiple batches. That's just not how it works

 

[geoguy78]

It's also an inaccurate representation because there is a good chance the 20 people who put in got product from different batches. You cant take an average across multiple batches. That's just not how it works

This is why I'm starting to be less enthused about the utility of testing than when I first started looking into research peptides. Ultimately any test you do is representative of one vial. There's no guarantee that all ten vials in the kit you receive are from the same batch! Amopure uses the same cap color for everything, for example. Would be really easy for them to just mix whatever they want. Or for there to be a mishap and a Reta vial accidentally gets into the Tirz bin. We don't even know what their facilities and processes are like. This is all just a shot in the dark, and the biggest value of testing, in my opinion, is showing long term trends with vendors, and not in answering the question of "is my kit good or not?"

 

[Broken Chef]

There's no guarantee that all ten vials in the kit you receive are from the same batch!

No guarantee when you buy a few kits on your own from a vendor. If you use a gb, some of the better ones use vendors who make batches for the buy. If the buy is big enough, the vendor has no reason to not do this. Some vote on what cap color the vendor will use for the batch, so unless the vendor happens to have multiple batches with various colored caps, it's a pretty sure thing that it's a custom batch. And some groups even supply their own custom colored crimps/caps to the vendor.

When you get a 3 vial test done, where the vials are randomly selected from the kits received, and they are all within 1mg of each other and within a tenth of a percent of purity, it's a pretty good indicator that it's all from the same batch. Sure some can vary, but not like what we saw with the Amo T60 test.. 55-64 is a HUGE difference compared to what we generally see.

Amopure uses the same cap color for everything

LOL Just 1 more reason to hope I'll never have to use them!

 

[geoguy78]

If you use a gb, some of the better ones use vendors who make batches for the buy

This is partly why I mentioned to you earlier that I'm going to start looking more heavily at the real GB world. Would rather be part of a group that's at least trying to call some of the shots and use leverage.

 

[zpped]

No one has ever tested that many vials before though. Outliers are bound to exist in every batch, we just rarely get to see them. I don't think amo is the best choice for other reasons but I'm very impressed with their accuracy.

Specifically about the low fill you mentioned, everyone should always treat every vial as the average of available measurements. GLP1 dosing isn't very tight anyways.

 

[geoguy78]

No one has ever tested that many vials before though. Outliers are bound to exist in every batch, we just rarely get to see them. I don't think amo is the best choice for other reasons but I'm very impressed with their accuracy.

Specifically about the low fill you mentioned, everyone should always treat every vial as the average of available measurements. GLP1 dosing isn't very tight anyways.

That quantity of tests from different individual orders is why I bought a kit from Amo. It was large enough that I felt like I could make a reasonable assumption about the overall risk factor and what I'd be getting ordering from Amo. Not sure I'd use them again though.

 

[scarywood75]

The willingness the vendor has to jump through some hoops, makes a difference even if the test doesn’t really hold that much value.

And the part you are forgetting, is that the grey market is the grey market.

Since there usually are a few links in the chain before you get your product. There is a chance the vendor doesn’t know what they are sending if they don’t do routine tests.

And if you go look for vendors in Facebook groups, I doubt you’ll need to do a lot of orders before you start looking for vendors with lab tests again.

The insistence on testing, and people doing their own tests, group buys doing tests etc probably helps keep more vendors honest too.

So, are the tests necessary - probably not. But for any vendor buying batches at a decent size, the test cost Isn’t exactly high per tested vial

Very true, to me testing is also a way to ensure vendors are more careful with what they send.

If we were not testing, I'm sure we would receive shit products everytime

 

[scarywood75]

There are a ton of good options and no perfect ones. Amo's stinging issue being unresolved has me feeling they aren't worth it right now. I have grams of amo's tirz and a fair bit of sema that I'm happy with though. And I wouldn't think someone is stupid for buying amo, they are definitely convenient.

We're currently looking at doing a bunch of tests on different vendors' prevelent counterions and there are some reasons to believe certain people are more likely to have immune reactions to specific counterions. I've developed a bit of an allergen response to my tirz and plan to experiment with some others to see if there is any correlation. (Tirz is also known to cause allergen responses in some people over time as well though)

The allergens part is very interesting, what's your symptoms? How long have you been on Tirz?

 

[zpped]

The allergens part is very interesting, what's your symptoms? How long have you been on Tirz?

Itchy injection site, small welt, redness, last a couple days after injection. Like a bad mosquito bite.

I've done maybe 15-20 injections. The last month on amo, and only started getting reaction the last couple. But I also started using 4mm pins and a little deeper might help. Benadryl cream also helps. It's only a concern if it started being more systemic reaction (hives or rashes in non localized spots)

 

[Broken Chef]

Itchy injection site, small welt, redness, last a couple days after injection. Like a bad mosquito bite.

I've done maybe 15-20 injections. The last month on amo, and only started getting reaction the last couple. But I also started using 4mm pins and a little deeper might help. Benadryl cream also helps. It's only a concern if it started being more systemic reaction (hives or rashes in non localized spots)

I'd be curious to see if filtering a vial provides any relief.. or maybe you already do. It might help rule out bacterial contamination. But to be sure, I'd suggest using vials that come with a sterility certification.. or sterilize them yourself.

Maybe I missed it, but I've not seen anyone clearly define what causes the stinging or other IJR's, but the recent sterility "craze" suggests that might be the culprit, once ruling out bac water...

Hell, it could be a batch of unsterile needles. You never know!

But if I was having issues like that, I think I'd do all I can to rule out bacteria/sterility issues from every aspect. Filter, new bac, new needles, maybe even change injection site to my leg.

Maybe you've done all of this already. If not, I think it would be prudent to review every single aspect, one thing at a time, so you can figure out the exact cause. I'd probably start with filtering.

 

[Broken Chef]

Mostly price not being great, and shipping cost is high. Other nitpicks like stinging, not disclosing what their filler is when people have asked, not having COAs for their products, etc.

I'll add that, up until recently, they had not been vacuum sealing the vials - this alone tells me they didn't do adequate research before entering the market. How would a vendor not know to do that?! This issue lends itself to the sterility issue and makes me wonder what other important steps are skipped. If they had a qualified chemist processing raws/finishing, then I have to think that person would have insisted on vacuum sealing the vials, no?

It just makes me think.. a bunch of college kids dropped out and were like - we can figure this out, just watch a YT vid!

 

[Bacchus]

I'll add that, up until recently, they had not been vacuum sealing the vials - this alone tells me they didn't do adequate research before entering the market. How would a vendor not know to do that?! This issue lends itself to the sterility issue and makes me wonder what other important steps are skipped. If they had a qualified chemist processing raws/finishing, then I have to think that person would have insisted on vacuum sealing the vials, no?

It just makes me think.. a bunch of college kids dropped out and were like - we can figure this out, just watch a YT vid!

Well, it isn’t strictly necessary for safety reasons.

As long as the vial is sterile and airtight that does the job.

The vacuum seal offers more perceived than actual effect.

I’m sure some would disagree, but the fda agrees - that’s good enough for me (technically they don’t mandate vacuum seals, so to be accurate they don’t disagree with me and that’s good enough for me).

 

[mopo89]

I've previously purchased from some Canadian domestic sources (Arctic, mainly) and their vials were, in my experience, not vacuum sealed. Amo's were the first vacuum sealed vials I experienced and I've been at this for over a year.

 

[Broken Chef]

Well, it isn’t strictly necessary for safety reasons.

As long as the vial is sterile and airtight that does the job.

The vacuum seal offers more perceived than actual effect.

I’m sure some would disagree, but the fda agrees - that’s good enough for me (technically they don’t mandate vacuum seals, so to be accurate they don’t disagree with me and that’s good enough for me).

Interesting....

I would imagine that's providing the crimps were done right. I've had a couple that wouldn't hold a vacuum, and that makes me think the crimps aren't sealed.

Coming from gray/black market labs in China is not as comforting as being produced in an inspected lab in the US that has oversight.

My perception is that if it's vacuum sealed, then air can't get in. So I certainly feel better when I tap a vial that has a vacuum.

I'm not a chemist or expert on sterility, but if air can get in, so can bacteria.

Coming from labs that probably aren't inspected, and not seeing anyone produce video of the finishing being done in a clean room... having that added security lets me know that even if it was exposed in transit or packaging, nothing got in.

I guess you could argue that the vacuum, combined with a leak, could suck in more bacteria than if it wasn't vacuum sealed.

The lack of 3ml sterile vials being available and what I recently learned about the lack of sterility in general is one of the reasons I'm seeking to filter into vials that have a sterility certification.

On that note - you might benefit from showing your processes in a video so that your customers can see, if nothing else, it's not just 3 guys sitting around a kitchen table, smoking cigarettes, doing shots of tequila, and spooning powder into vials, slapping crimps on them and tossing them into a box.

It's best not to leave these things to people's imagination.

 

[Broken Chef]

I've previously purchased from some Canadian domestic sources (Arctic, mainly) and their vials were, in my experience, not vacuum sealed. Amo's were the first vacuum sealed vials I experienced and I've been at this for over a year.

Ive only been at this for 5 months, but the 4 different places I've bought from all have vacuum sealed vials.... And my understanding is/was that it's common practice.

This is the first I've heard otherwise.

 

[Bacchus]

Ive only been at this for 5 months, but the 4 different places I've bought from all have vacuum sealed vials.... And my understanding is/was that it's common practice.

This is the first I've heard otherwise.

It is very common, probably for the reason you mentioned above - then you know 🙂

And if you get a batch that’s mixed I would be a bit worried. Since that logically means some has lost vacuum I suppose.

But as long as the vial is airtight, it does not matter whether it has vacuum or not 🙂
—-
As for showing our process: We are not a lab, we source from China 🙂 As for showing a video of the lab, it wouldn’t really prove anything except that we have or know someone with access to a lab 🤷‍♂️ So I’m not sure if that would have any value?

 

[zpped]

Maybe you've done all of this already. If not, I think it would be prudent to review every single aspect, one thing at a time, so you can figure out the exact cause. I'd probably start with filtering.

I'm overkill on my process for reconstitution. And I filter into pen cartridges that have been autoclaved. I also take a handful of other peptides with the same cartridges and needles. I'm 100% it's not sterility related.