Overfill — a good or bad thing?

[geoguy78]

I think it's entirely too much money for the testing done. I think the labs are taking advantage of the popularity of peptides just as much as the US suppliers charging 10x the price.

Personally I'm starting to think that the value of third party testing is overrated. All it does is verify that what you bought is what you think it is, how pure the peptide is, and how much peptide a vial contains. What it doesn't tell you are the things people really want to know from a harm reduction standpoint, like what other (potentially hazardous) substances are in the vial. Yes, there have been instances where a vial contained a different peptide than what was ordered (there's a current example of this happening with a recent GB), but how common is that? Yes, there have been instances of drastic over or under fill (under means you're getting ripped off, but it's not dangerous. Most overfills aren't going to be dangerous either) but how common are those instances? I guess I'm just not 100% convinced that it's as necessary as many make it out to be

 

[Dee X]

I think it's entirely too much money for the testing done. I think the labs are taking advantage of the popularity of peptides just as much as the US suppliers charging 10x the price.

I do wonder what it costs for them to operate.

 

[SmokeySquid]

Personally I'm starting to think that the value of third party testing is overrated. All it does is verify that what you bought is what you think it is, how pure the peptide is, and how much peptide a vial contains. What it doesn't tell you are the things people really want to know from a harm reduction standpoint, like what other (potentially hazardous) substances are in the vial. Yes, there have been instances where a vial contained a different peptide than what was ordered (there's a current example of this happening with a recent GB), but how common is that? Yes, there have been instances of drastic over or under fill (under means you're getting ripped off, but it's not dangerous. Most overfills aren't going to be dangerous either) but how common are those instances? I guess I'm just not 100% convinced that it's as necessary as many make it out to be

I figure it’s not that common because people test as often as they do. In an unregulated market where nobody is testing I think most of these venders would be tempted to under fill, cut with something else or otherwise find ways to get more from each transaction. I do wish testing it was cheaper and more comprehensive if only to encourage even more people to test the products that are being sold to us.

 

[geoguy78]

I figure it’s not that common because people test as often as they do. In an unregulated market where nobody is testing I think most of these venders would be tempted to under fill, cut with something else or otherwise find ways to get more from each transaction. I do wish testing it was cheaper and more comprehensive if only to encourage even more people to test the products that are being sold to us.

Maybe so. But it is hard to justify paying hundreds of dollars for testing and destroying a vial (moreso if you aren't buying in large quantities), especially with some of the less trendy peptides costing less for an entire kit than you pay for a test

 

[zpped]

Maybe so. But it is hard to justify paying hundreds of dollars for testing and destroying a vial (moreso if you aren't buying in large quantities), especially with some of the less trendy peptides costing less for an entire kit than you pay for a test

That's why we group together to test things. If everyone stopped testing, the vendors would start sending shit in a few weeks. It's our only power over them.

 

[exploitedworkerbee]

Maybe so. But it is hard to justify paying hundreds of dollars for testing and destroying a vial (moreso if you aren't buying in large quantities), especially with some of the less trendy peptides costing less for an entire kit than you pay for a test

This is where it comes down to risk tolerance. You want a good deal and don’t mind the risk, don’t test it. That doesn’t make testing overrated, it means you don’t think it’s worth the money for the peace of mind you get from it personally. Others have a different relationship with risk and money.

 

[Broken Chef]

Just my take, but I would reconstitute based on the nominal volume and not the CoA volume. Reason being that random batch tests have shown peptide volume being all over the place. The recent Amo group test for example, there were a wide variety of peptide volumes noted. Some over, some under. Now Amo seems to keep their "shot group" pretty tight with their fill amounts, but not all vendors have that kind of fill consistency.

The amo test with the wide range of fill is not typical from a batch. You have 20 people buying over a period of time and there's no way to know if they all came from 1 batch or 6 different batches.

As with any of the vendors, there is no way to know if they are showing you a test from the batch you get. Where the better gb's are more likely to come from one batch. There are other ways to ensure it's a custom batch. And you'll know what I mean if you get into the right gb.

If you find the right gb, I think you'll find that the range between vials tested is minimal - usually.

The reason I like 3 vial tests is so I can take an average of the fill rate and recon based on that.

How you recon and what it is might matter...

If you use say 1ml bac in a 10mg sema vial, but it happens to be 12mg, and you are dividing that into 4 doses, your 25 unit 2.5mg dose is now 3mg because you recon'd based on 10 rather than 12.

If it's 60mg tirz with 65mg in it and you divide it into 12 doses, your 5mg doses are now 5.4 ish and not a big deal.

But there are other peptides that you use 100-300mcg daily, so if a 10mg vial has 12.5mg and you recon with 1ml, that's going to throw off your dosing. If your dose is 6 units, it's already hard to be accurate. If you mistakenly go to 8 and it's over strength, you could be taking 1.5 doses.

I think it's better to be as precise as possible at all times, but maybe that's just my OCD speaking.

 

[relliott152000]

The amo test with the wide range of fill is not typical from a batch. You have 20 people buying over a period of time and there's no way to know if they all came from 1 batch or 6 different batches.

As with any of the vendors, there is no way to know if they are showing you a test from the batch you get. Where the better gb's are more likely to come from one batch. There are other ways to ensure it's a custom batch. And you'll know what I mean if you get into the right gb.

If you find the right gb, I think you'll find that the range between vials tested is minimal - usually.

The reason I like 3 vial tests is so I can take an average of the fill rate and recon based on that.

How you recon and what it is might matter...

If you use say 1ml bac in a 10mg sema vial, but it happens to be 12mg, and you are dividing that into 4 doses, your 25 unit 2.5mg dose is now 3mg because you recon'd based on 10 rather than 12.

If it's 60mg tirz with 65mg in it and you divide it into 12 doses, your 5mg doses are now 5.4 ish and not a big deal.

But there are other peptides that you use 100-300mcg daily, so if a 10mg vial has 12.5mg and you recon with 1ml, that's going to throw off your dosing. If your dose is 6 units, it's already hard to be accurate. If you mistakenly go to 8 and it's over strength, you could be taking 1.5 doses.

I think it's better to be as precise as possible at all times, but maybe that's just my OCD speaking.

I have been reading y’all’s posts *literally since 7pm yesterday* as a complete newbie who came from (gasp!) Reddit - and holy shizz this particular formation of words you just assembled has got my head SPINNING . Man, I have a lot to learn.

 

[Broken Chef]

I have been reading y’all’s posts *literally since 7pm yesterday* as a complete newbie who came from (gasp!) Reddit - and holy shizz this particular formation of words you just assembled has got my head SPINNING . Man, I have a lot to learn.

Lol, don't take my criticism of reddit newbs so seriously. I had just left a FB group because I couldn't handle the stupid questions anymore.. and I've only been at this about 5 months. I'm just disabled and spent a stupid amount of time researching, like 40+hrs/week, lol Most of what I say is from what I've read 1000 times, some from personal experience, some from common sense, some because I can and you'd really have to piss off Zip to no end to get banned from here, lol

"I just got my tirz but it's all dried up, I think it's old, is this safe, can I just add some water"?

It's simple - Prove you've done your research by not asking questions like that, or questions that were already answered 5 times in the same thread. Zero need to validate your research with me.

I'm not a senior member in any sense other than the time I've been here and the amount of posts I've made. At the rate others are contributing, there will be 100 more "senior members" in about 3 months, unless Zip changes those settings.

There were barely 1000 members here when I came in, and maybe 10-15 were active. I suppose it's partially my OCD that doesn't want to deal with 500 new people every week. I tried to help as many as I could, and even welcomed almost every single one who posted an introduction, but it's suddenly not possible. So it's more me and my OCD. As I said, I'm very much self aware and will call myself out just as fast as anyone else.

I do believe, for the most part, if you found your way here by talking to people on Reddit or on your own means, you are at least doing some research. And my fear is that there will be an abundance of FB type people going to reddit, seeing the link to here, then flooding this place with nonsense. It's hard for me personally to keep up with the influx, the previous lack of mods was concerning. It was pretty much just Zip, when he had time, and he relied on a few others to report concerning content. I do hope that the current mods, and perhaps more, will become an ongoing thing. They tend to be more level headed than me, and have more experience, as Zip said in his recent posts.

But I'm glad I was able to open your eyes a bit, and if nothing else, you can see where my concern comes from.

I am split on Dionysos's spreadsheets. I think they are helpful to newcomers, but I don't think most heed the disclaimer that it's meerly a starting point, not carved in stone. Things can go wrong that we don't learn about until 1-2 months later. If 200 people a day come in here and order from Amo, then 2 months later we learn there was an issue, there could be thousands of people who got screwed, in 1 way it another. An extreme scenario, but makes a point.

As Zip says, NONE of the vendors here or even mentioned here are "Endorsed" by the forum. This is critical info that I think a lot of people ignore, or don't even bother to read, and is why EWB and others are so critical of the spreadsheets. It does border shilling. I know that's not Dionysos's intent, but in this world of chaos and scams, everything is scrutinized.

That said, I will admit that I too based my very first purchase off of that spreadsheet when it was first formed. But only after talking extensively with Dionysos and others, and before I even got here. Once I learned he loves his wife, lol, and I even asked him that, I chose to order from the place he used for HER peptides. But that was a judgement call on my part and my own ass if it didn't pan out. I fear others might be more prone to put the blame on him if there was a problem... Or even the forum for allowing it. In a world of constant frivolous lawsuits, you can't be too careful.

I have talked with him extensively, and he does take those sheets very seriously and does all he can to keep them current. But no 1 person is perfect , and even with the few others that contribute, things can be missed and, as I said, there can be issues we don't learn about until months later. Personally, I won't order from Amo and don't see the draw. The only thing I see they excel at is expedited shipping. If that's someone's main concern, along with being cheaper than domestic, then I don't think they've done enough research. It's an Amazon mentality... I want it NOW! Not saying Amo has bad products, just that my research led me to other options that I personally see as MUCH better.

 

[moonpies4misfits]

There were barely 1000 members here when I came in, and maybe 10-15 were active. I suppose it's partially my OCD that doesn't want to deal with 500 new people every week. I tried to help as many as I could, and even welcomed almost every single one who posted an introduction, but it's suddenly not possible.

I've only been here about two and a half months and I'm feeling this too. Pretty sure the member count has almost doubled in that time. At least 400 new members in the last few weeks. The main reasons this became my favorite forum was the fact that everyone here had at least a remedial understanding of how this world works and I was actually able to learn without having to scroll through countless "why is there powder in my vial" and so on.

Not that I have an issue with this forum gaining traction in general. I just hope that all the new members do some reading before immediately posting questions.

 

[Dee X]

I've only been here about two and a half months and I'm feeling this too. Pretty sure the member count has almost doubled in that time. At least 400 new members in the last few weeks. The main reasons this became my favorite forum was the fact that everyone here had at least a remedial understanding of how this world works and I was actually able to learn without having to scroll through countless "why is there powder in my vial" and so on.

Not that I have an issue with this forum gaining traction in general. I just hope that all the new members do some reading before immediately posting questions.

Still better than Reddit doom-scrolling:

"I haven't pooped in 3 weeks, should I see a doctor?"

"Are GLP1s cheating?"

"It's 3 am and I can't sleep, I drank 3 liters of vodka and ate 7 cheeseburgers last night... Now I am pooping my brains out. Is my Ozempic dosage too high?"

 

[Bacchus]

Personally I'm starting to think that the value of third party testing is overrated. All it does is verify that what you bought is what you think it is, how pure the peptide is, and how much peptide a vial contains. What it doesn't tell you are the things people really want to know from a harm reduction standpoint, like what other (potentially hazardous) substances are in the vial. Yes, there have been instances where a vial contained a different peptide than what was ordered (there's a current example of this happening with a recent GB), but how common is that? Yes, there have been instances of drastic over or under fill (under means you're getting ripped off, but it's not dangerous. Most overfills aren't going to be dangerous either) but how common are those instances? I guess I'm just not 100% convinced that it's as necessary as many make it out to be

The willingness the vendor has to jump through some hoops, makes a difference even if the test doesn’t really hold that much value.

And the part you are forgetting, is that the grey market is the grey market.

Since there usually are a few links in the chain before you get your product. There is a chance the vendor doesn’t know what they are sending if they don’t do routine tests.

And if you go look for vendors in Facebook groups, I doubt you’ll need to do a lot of orders before you start looking for vendors with lab tests again.

The insistence on testing, and people doing their own tests, group buys doing tests etc probably helps keep more vendors honest too.

So, are the tests necessary - probably not. But for any vendor buying batches at a decent size, the test cost Isn’t exactly high per tested vial

 

[zpped]

The amo test with the wide range of fill is not typical from a batch

I think this is a weird interpretation of the results of that test. The average fill was within about 1% of the target and they were all within about 5%. These are pretty great results.

 

[Broken Chef]

I think this is a weird interpretation of the results of that test. The average fill was within about 1% of the target and they were all within about 5%. These are pretty great results.

Maybe we are talking about 2 different tests - If I recall correctly, the T60 ranged from like 55 to 64 - That's about a 17% swing from one side to the other. Sure, the average is good, but if your vial tested at 55, your kit is potentially 50mg short... almost an entire vial worth. I wouldn't call that great by any stretch of the imagination when other batch tests are generally within a gram or two, and usually all to one side of the fill.

It's also an inaccurate representation because there is a good chance the 20 people who put in got product from different batches. You cant take an average across multiple batches. That's just not how it works

 

[geoguy78]

It's also an inaccurate representation because there is a good chance the 20 people who put in got product from different batches. You cant take an average across multiple batches. That's just not how it works

This is why I'm starting to be less enthused about the utility of testing than when I first started looking into research peptides. Ultimately any test you do is representative of one vial. There's no guarantee that all ten vials in the kit you receive are from the same batch! Amopure uses the same cap color for everything, for example. Would be really easy for them to just mix whatever they want. Or for there to be a mishap and a Reta vial accidentally gets into the Tirz bin. We don't even know what their facilities and processes are like. This is all just a shot in the dark, and the biggest value of testing, in my opinion, is showing long term trends with vendors, and not in answering the question of "is my kit good or not?"

 

[DevynL90]

Amopure uses the same cap color for everything, for example. Would be really easy for them to just mix whatever they want. Or for there to be a mishap and a Reta vial accidentally gets into the Tirz bin. We don't even know what their facilities and processes are like. This is all just a shot in the dark, and the biggest value of testing, in my opinion, is showing long term trends with vendors, and not in answering the question of "is my kit good or not?"

Ooof, new fear unlocked right there for me, lmao.

 

[Broken Chef]

There's no guarantee that all ten vials in the kit you receive are from the same batch!

No guarantee when you buy a few kits on your own from a vendor. If you use a gb, some of the better ones use vendors who make batches for the buy. If the buy is big enough, the vendor has no reason to not do this. Some vote on what cap color the vendor will use for the batch, so unless the vendor happens to have multiple batches with various colored caps, it's a pretty sure thing that it's a custom batch. And some groups even supply their own custom colored crimps/caps to the vendor.

When you get a 3 vial test done, where the vials are randomly selected from the kits received, and they are all within 1mg of each other and within a tenth of a percent of purity, it's a pretty good indicator that it's all from the same batch. Sure some can vary, but not like what we saw with the Amo T60 test.. 55-64 is a HUGE difference compared to what we generally see.

Amopure uses the same cap color for everything

LOL Just 1 more reason to hope I'll never have to use them!

 

[DevynL90]

No guarantee when you buy a few kits on your own from a vendor. If you use a gb, some of the better ones use vendors who make batches for the buy. If the buy is big enough, the vendor has no reason to not do this. Some vote on what cap color the vendor will use for the batch, so unless the vendor happens to have multiple batches with various colored caps, it's a pretty sure thing that it's a custom batch. And some groups even supply their own custom colored crimps/caps to the vendor.

When you get a 3 vial test done, where the vials are randomly selected from the kits received, and they are all within 1mg of each other and within a tenth of a percent of purity, it's a pretty good indicator that it's all from the same batch. Sure some can vary, but not like what we saw with the Amo T60 test.. 55-64 is a HUGE difference compared to what we generally see.


LOL Just 1 more reason to hope I'll never have to use them!

i've got L60 on the way that should be here soon. no turning back now i suppose, lol. i liked them due to the whole safety in numbers (stinging concerns don't bother me) and there's been enough 3rd party testing to give me relief. but i never even considered the cap thing. oh well, if i grow a 2nd head it was just meant to be.

 

[geoguy78]

If you use a gb, some of the better ones use vendors who make batches for the buy

This is partly why I mentioned to you earlier that I'm going to start looking more heavily at the real GB world. Would rather be part of a group that's at least trying to call some of the shots and use leverage.

 

[geoguy78]

i've got L60 on the way that should be here soon. no turning back now i suppose, lol. i liked them due to the whole safety in numbers (stinging concerns don't bother me) and there's been enough 3rd party testing to give me relief. but i never even considered the cap thing. oh well, if i grow a 2nd head it was just meant to be.

My L30 has been fine so far. No stinging and works as well as compound at the same dose. I think you'll be alright.