Overfill — a good or bad thing?

[zpped]

No one has ever tested that many vials before though. Outliers are bound to exist in every batch, we just rarely get to see them. I don't think amo is the best choice for other reasons but I'm very impressed with their accuracy.

Specifically about the low fill you mentioned, everyone should always treat every vial as the average of available measurements. GLP1 dosing isn't very tight anyways.

 

[geoguy78]

No one has ever tested that many vials before though. Outliers are bound to exist in every batch, we just rarely get to see them. I don't think amo is the best choice for other reasons but I'm very impressed with their accuracy.

Specifically about the low fill you mentioned, everyone should always treat every vial as the average of available measurements. GLP1 dosing isn't very tight anyways.

That quantity of tests from different individual orders is why I bought a kit from Amo. It was large enough that I felt like I could make a reasonable assumption about the overall risk factor and what I'd be getting ordering from Amo. Not sure I'd use them again though.

 

[DevynL90]

No one has ever tested that many vials before though. Outliers are bound to exist in every batch, we just rarely get to see them. I don't think amo is the best choice for other reasons but I'm very impressed with their accuracy.

Specifically about the low fill you mentioned, everyone should always treat every vial as the average of available measurements. GLP1 dosing isn't very tight anyways.

That quantity of tests from different individual orders is why I bought a kit from Amo. It was large enough that I felt like I could make a reasonable assumption about the overall risk factor and what I'd be getting ordering from Amo. Not sure I'd use them again though.

i see this take a lot and i'm not sure what to take from it as a newcomer tbh. could either of you expand on their downsides a bit? i've seen the stinging thing. is it price? i'm just trying to understand what i'm missing here. i would assume once you find a vendor that works, that it would behoove you to continue sticking it out with them so i'm just so surprised to see so many people give amo credit while also admitting that they probably will go with someone else in the future.

 

[scarywood75]

The willingness the vendor has to jump through some hoops, makes a difference even if the test doesn’t really hold that much value.

And the part you are forgetting, is that the grey market is the grey market.

Since there usually are a few links in the chain before you get your product. There is a chance the vendor doesn’t know what they are sending if they don’t do routine tests.

And if you go look for vendors in Facebook groups, I doubt you’ll need to do a lot of orders before you start looking for vendors with lab tests again.

The insistence on testing, and people doing their own tests, group buys doing tests etc probably helps keep more vendors honest too.

So, are the tests necessary - probably not. But for any vendor buying batches at a decent size, the test cost Isn’t exactly high per tested vial

Very true, to me testing is also a way to ensure vendors are more careful with what they send.

If we were not testing, I'm sure we would receive shit products everytime

 

[zpped]

i see this take a lot and i'm not sure what to take from it as a newcomer tbh. could either of you expand on their downsides a bit? i've seen the stinging thing. is it price? i'm just trying to understand what i'm missing here. i would assume once you find a vendor that works, that it would behoove you to continue sticking it out with them so i'm just so surprised to see so many people give amo credit while also admitting that they probably will go with someone else in the future.

There are a ton of good options and no perfect ones. Amo's stinging issue being unresolved has me feeling they aren't worth it right now. I have grams of amo's tirz and a fair bit of sema that I'm happy with though. And I wouldn't think someone is stupid for buying amo, they are definitely convenient.

We're currently looking at doing a bunch of tests on different vendors' prevelent counterions and there are some reasons to believe certain people are more likely to have immune reactions to specific counterions. I've developed a bit of an allergen response to my tirz and plan to experiment with some others to see if there is any correlation. (Tirz is also known to cause allergen responses in some people over time as well though)

 

[scarywood75]

There are a ton of good options and no perfect ones. Amo's stinging issue being unresolved has me feeling they aren't worth it right now. I have grams of amo's tirz and a fair bit of sema that I'm happy with though. And I wouldn't think someone is stupid for buying amo, they are definitely convenient.

We're currently looking at doing a bunch of tests on different vendors' prevelent counterions and there are some reasons to believe certain people are more likely to have immune reactions to specific counterions. I've developed a bit of an allergen response to my tirz and plan to experiment with some others to see if there is any correlation. (Tirz is also known to cause allergen responses in some people over time as well though)

The allergens part is very interesting, what's your symptoms? How long have you been on Tirz?

 

[zpped]

The allergens part is very interesting, what's your symptoms? How long have you been on Tirz?

Itchy injection site, small welt, redness, last a couple days after injection. Like a bad mosquito bite.

I've done maybe 15-20 injections. The last month on amo, and only started getting reaction the last couple. But I also started using 4mm pins and a little deeper might help. Benadryl cream also helps. It's only a concern if it started being more systemic reaction (hives or rashes in non localized spots)

 

[geoguy78]

i see this take a lot and i'm not sure what to take from it as a newcomer tbh. could either of you expand on their downsides a bit? i've seen the stinging thing. is it price? i'm just trying to understand what i'm missing here. i would assume once you find a vendor that works, that it would behoove you to continue sticking it out with them so i'm just so surprised to see so many people give amo credit while also admitting that they probably will go with someone else in the future.

Mostly price not being great, and shipping cost is high. Other nitpicks like stinging, not disclosing what their filler is when people have asked, not having COAs for their products, etc.

 

[Broken Chef]

Itchy injection site, small welt, redness, last a couple days after injection. Like a bad mosquito bite.

I've done maybe 15-20 injections. The last month on amo, and only started getting reaction the last couple. But I also started using 4mm pins and a little deeper might help. Benadryl cream also helps. It's only a concern if it started being more systemic reaction (hives or rashes in non localized spots)

I'd be curious to see if filtering a vial provides any relief.. or maybe you already do. It might help rule out bacterial contamination. But to be sure, I'd suggest using vials that come with a sterility certification.. or sterilize them yourself.

Maybe I missed it, but I've not seen anyone clearly define what causes the stinging or other IJR's, but the recent sterility "craze" suggests that might be the culprit, once ruling out bac water...

Hell, it could be a batch of unsterile needles. You never know!

But if I was having issues like that, I think I'd do all I can to rule out bacteria/sterility issues from every aspect. Filter, new bac, new needles, maybe even change injection site to my leg.

Maybe you've done all of this already. If not, I think it would be prudent to review every single aspect, one thing at a time, so you can figure out the exact cause. I'd probably start with filtering.

 

[Broken Chef]

Mostly price not being great, and shipping cost is high. Other nitpicks like stinging, not disclosing what their filler is when people have asked, not having COAs for their products, etc.

I'll add that, up until recently, they had not been vacuum sealing the vials - this alone tells me they didn't do adequate research before entering the market. How would a vendor not know to do that?! This issue lends itself to the sterility issue and makes me wonder what other important steps are skipped. If they had a qualified chemist processing raws/finishing, then I have to think that person would have insisted on vacuum sealing the vials, no?

It just makes me think.. a bunch of college kids dropped out and were like - we can figure this out, just watch a YT vid!

 

[Bacchus]

I'll add that, up until recently, they had not been vacuum sealing the vials - this alone tells me they didn't do adequate research before entering the market. How would a vendor not know to do that?! This issue lends itself to the sterility issue and makes me wonder what other important steps are skipped. If they had a qualified chemist processing raws/finishing, then I have to think that person would have insisted on vacuum sealing the vials, no?

It just makes me think.. a bunch of college kids dropped out and were like - we can figure this out, just watch a YT vid!

Well, it isn’t strictly necessary for safety reasons.

As long as the vial is sterile and airtight that does the job.

The vacuum seal offers more perceived than actual effect.

I’m sure some would disagree, but the fda agrees - that’s good enough for me (technically they don’t mandate vacuum seals, so to be accurate they don’t disagree with me and that’s good enough for me).

 

[mopo89]

I've previously purchased from some Canadian domestic sources (Arctic, mainly) and their vials were, in my experience, not vacuum sealed. Amo's were the first vacuum sealed vials I experienced and I've been at this for over a year.

 

[Broken Chef]

Well, it isn’t strictly necessary for safety reasons.

As long as the vial is sterile and airtight that does the job.

The vacuum seal offers more perceived than actual effect.

I’m sure some would disagree, but the fda agrees - that’s good enough for me (technically they don’t mandate vacuum seals, so to be accurate they don’t disagree with me and that’s good enough for me).

Interesting....

I would imagine that's providing the crimps were done right. I've had a couple that wouldn't hold a vacuum, and that makes me think the crimps aren't sealed.

Coming from gray/black market labs in China is not as comforting as being produced in an inspected lab in the US that has oversight.

My perception is that if it's vacuum sealed, then air can't get in. So I certainly feel better when I tap a vial that has a vacuum.

I'm not a chemist or expert on sterility, but if air can get in, so can bacteria.

Coming from labs that probably aren't inspected, and not seeing anyone produce video of the finishing being done in a clean room... having that added security lets me know that even if it was exposed in transit or packaging, nothing got in.

I guess you could argue that the vacuum, combined with a leak, could suck in more bacteria than if it wasn't vacuum sealed.

The lack of 3ml sterile vials being available and what I recently learned about the lack of sterility in general is one of the reasons I'm seeking to filter into vials that have a sterility certification.

On that note - you might benefit from showing your processes in a video so that your customers can see, if nothing else, it's not just 3 guys sitting around a kitchen table, smoking cigarettes, doing shots of tequila, and spooning powder into vials, slapping crimps on them and tossing them into a box.

It's best not to leave these things to people's imagination.

 

[Broken Chef]

I've previously purchased from some Canadian domestic sources (Arctic, mainly) and their vials were, in my experience, not vacuum sealed. Amo's were the first vacuum sealed vials I experienced and I've been at this for over a year.

Ive only been at this for 5 months, but the 4 different places I've bought from all have vacuum sealed vials.... And my understanding is/was that it's common practice.

This is the first I've heard otherwise.

 

[Bacchus]

Ive only been at this for 5 months, but the 4 different places I've bought from all have vacuum sealed vials.... And my understanding is/was that it's common practice.

This is the first I've heard otherwise.

It is very common, probably for the reason you mentioned above - then you know

And if you get a batch that’s mixed I would be a bit worried. Since that logically means some has lost vacuum I suppose.

But as long as the vial is airtight, it does not matter whether it has vacuum or not
—-
As for showing our process: We are not a lab, we source from China As for showing a video of the lab, it wouldn’t really prove anything except that we have or know someone with access to a lab So I’m not sure if that would have any value?

 

[zpped]

Maybe you've done all of this already. If not, I think it would be prudent to review every single aspect, one thing at a time, so you can figure out the exact cause. I'd probably start with filtering.

I'm overkill on my process for reconstitution. And I filter into pen cartridges that have been autoclaved. I also take a handful of other peptides with the same cartridges and needles. I'm 100% it's not sterility related.