Thermos Freezer Test - Long-term storage

[GimmeABreak]

I have built up a nice little cache of Peps over the past couple of months and am concerned about keeping them safe for long-term storage. I purchased a $200 Amazon 1.1cuft freezer that will go down to about -9 degrees so I am covered there to keep peps safe for at least a few years. My next challenge was buying some time if the power goes out or the freezer dies when I am out of town (which is often). The solution? Insulated storage containers.

I started with the 32oz Hydraflask food storage container and wondered how long it would keep my peps below freezing if the freezer died. I tested by putting in a heavy drinking glass an a couple of shot glasses (to simulate glass vials) added my Govee wireless temp/humidy sensor and it actually worked inside the insulated container, inside of the fridge. I waited until the temp was below -5 degrees F and then took it out leaving it at room temp. Sadly, within 2.5 hours the temp had risen from -5F to >32F. Not good enough.

Next I tried the 47oz Thermos food storage container. It has two plastic containers that stack inside and will hold roughly 10 kits of peps!

I froze the thermos (loaded with drinking/shot glasses) to negative -5 degrees F and removed it at 9:00 PM. The Thermos managed to keep the peps below freezing for over 5.5 hours! The Govee will send me a notification if the freezer temp exceeds a preselected temp. This thermos will give me time to call a family member to save my peps if something happens when I am out of town. My little freezer will probably hold three of thermos containers which means I can keep buying peps!

 

[YoYoFat]

Super dumb question, but by putting the thermos in the freezer, it gets the peps inside cold enough to freeze? Or do you have to put them in already frozen?

I thought a thermos would prevent the outside (freezer) temp from affecting the stuff inside (where the peps are stored). Is that not right?

 

[GimmeABreak]

Super dumb question, but by putting the thermos in the freezer, it gets the peps inside cold enough to freeze? Or do you have to put them in already frozen?

I thought a thermos would prevent the outside (freezer) temp from affecting the stuff inside (where the peps are stored). Is that not right?

No, the temp in the thermos will increase/decrease based on the ambient temperature outside of the thermos. It just takes longer with it sealed up. I just checked my temp app and it took about 22 hours to go from 70 degrees F to -5F.

 

[GimmeABreak]

Here's some graph for ya

This is great info, I had no idea that they would lose 10% of potency after just 12 months at -20C (which is where my freezer sits).

Do you know who did this testing and which pep(s) was tested?

So after 24 months of -20C we are probably looking at <75% of original potency?
I guess when I pull them out of the freezer 5 years from now I should get them tested to dose correctly.

I guess I need to stop buying peps. Now what am I going to do with those hours and hours of free time every week?

 

[YoYoFat]

This is great info, I had no idea that they would lose 10% of potency after just 12 months at -20C (which is where my freezer sits).

Do you know who did this testing and which pep(s) was tested?

So after 24 months of -20C we are probably looking at <75% of original potency?
I guess when I pull them out of the freezer 5 years from now I should get them tested to dose correctly.

I guess I need to stop buying peps. Now what am I going to do with those hours and hours of free time every week?

This is why I stopped buying. I have 4 years at double my dose right now, and I don’t think I’ve ever even seen someone using a supply that’s a year old.

 

[DwightTheDelight]

This is the theoretical outcome, it has not been exactly tested in these exact settings.

This is not considering the additions of any fillers/stabilizers/antioxidants to the peptide

Why are you so smart? Just panic with the rest of us please.

I have a year's worth of reta, sema, and cagri that I'm about to take tomorrow in one giant dose. Wish me luck 🤞 🤞

 

[penewbie]

This is the theoretical outcome, it has not been exactly tested in these exact settings.

This is not considering the additions of any fillers/stabilizers/antioxidants to the peptide

Theoretical outcome based on what?

 

[penewbie]

I'm no scientist aha idk why, I just know the numbers aren't backed up by matching studies

Am I reading this right? Did you just entirely make up those graphs from nothing?

 

[penewbie]

No lol, I'm making these based of the knowledge scientists know so far, what I'm saying is that it's not backed up by studies. It's assumptions from scientists that actually know their shit, not from me, but it's still just assumptions.

Are the scientists in the room with us?

I'm honestly more confused than before, where is this coming from? Can you link a source to your uh, scientists' assumptions?

 

[Dee X]

No lol, I'm making these based of the knowledge scientists know so far, what I'm saying is that it's not backed up by studies. It's assumptions from scientists that actually know their shit, not from me, but it's still just assumptions.

Just to be clear, you're putting this together and pulling data with ChatGPT and Claude based on your previous posts, correct?

Can you post sourcing information for said data as well?

 

[Glp1judd]

Here's some graph for ya

Thanks for sharing these.

 

[Glp1judd]

I guess when I pull them out of the freezer 5 years from now I should get them tested to dose correctly.

Not sure potency can even be tested in an affordable way. Testing we get is usually by molecular weight, isn’t it? That seems insufficient to test potency degradation.

 

[beefsteak]

Good thread, needs more input from users. I have a zojirushi thermos coming and it's apparently the best on the market.

Those 3d printed peptide cases are a joke. It's finally time for proper storage methods.

 

[YoYoFat]

Yeah, well this is the theory, I have not been in here long enough myself to really know if that is true or not.

I feel like it's more on the dramatic side, but I plan on running a vial or two to test. It also depends on the type of peptides

Someone shared a chart (ETA: it was you! 🤣) of how much they regrade over time based on how frequently they thaw, and with zero thaws, they degrade 10%-ish a year.

So if you’ve got an 11.4 overfilled 10mg, then I suppose you could treat it like a straight 10 a year later.

 

[GimmeABreak]

Here's another graph that may be more relatable for you guys, since the ones I posted are for pure peptide, here's one with the difference of fillers on preservation at -20 - Trehalose seems to be the best at that temperature

This chart contradicts the first chart you posted. Pure peptide potency declines 25% after 12 months on this chart but about 6% after 12 mo on the chart that shows zero freeze/thaw cycles?

 

[YoYoFat]

This chart contradicts the first chart you posted. Pure peptide potency declines 25% after 12 months on this chart but about 6% after 12 mo on the chart that shows zero freeze/thaw cycles?

Eh? This has a longer period on the X axis and on a 12 month period shows about 10%.

 

[GimmeABreak]

I just sent out two different T30 samples for testing from different suppliers. Will store at -20C in a thermos (from my original post) in a manual defrost freezer. If I pull out a vial in November-2025 and send it for testing it would be at least one reasonably valid datapoint. Assuming there is consistency from vials in the same batch (or in my case kit).

 

[GimmeABreak]

Eh? This has a longer period on the X axis and on a 12 month period shows about 10%.

Ok, I was reading it wrong and was considering zero freeze/thaw cycles but it is still inconsistent when you compare one freeze/thaw cycle.

This chart is for pure peptides and the green line indicates a 10% decline after 12 months with one freeze thaw cycles.





The red line on this chart indicates a 30% degradation on pure peptides stored at -20C after 12 months.


I agree that there probably isn't any solid research on this and the fillers used during lyophilization probably play a bigger role in degradation than the peptide itself given the % of peptide vs. filler in the total mass.

 

[GimmeABreak]

Good thread, needs more input from users. I have a zojirushi thermos coming and it's apparently the best on the market.

Those 3d printed peptide cases are a joke. It's finally time for proper storage methods.

I almost want to buy a Zojrushi food jar to check it's performance agains my 47oz thermos. I originally bought four of the Hydraflask 32oz food containers because others have made and sell 3d printed vial holders that fit inside them. I was very disappointed in their ability to keep the contents cold after removing from the freezer (only about 2.5 hours).

I think the 3d vial cases are ok if you are storing for <6mo but if you put into a frost free freezer your peps are going to go through a lot of temp variations both from the freeze/thaw cycle and the bigger variable of opening/closing the freezer and adding unfrozen items. We cooked a big pot of chili yesterday and added a few containers to the freezer last night and it caused a huge temp spike:



With our peps being freeze-dried powder, they don't have a lot of cold retention and defrost quickly as the glass vial warms up.

 

[DwightTheDelight]

I just sent out two different T30 samples for testing from different suppliers. Will store at -20C in a thermos (from my original post) in a manual defrost freezer. If I pull out a vial in November-2025 and send it for testing it would be at least one reasonably valid datapoint. Assuming there is consistency from vials in the same batch (or in my case kit).

You are a heck of a person for doing this!

I wish we were going to be alive to see the results, but with all of these fibrils we're forming, even if we are alive in q4 2025, we won't be capable of understanding the results from your experiment.

At least we can leave the results for the next group of peptide researchers from 2026 who discover our fossils.

"Hey boss, come look at these fibril ridden fossils! They seem to be holding some sort of scientific papers."

 

[GimmeABreak]

You are a heck of a person for doing this!

I wish we were going to be alive to see the results, but with all of these fibrils we're forming, even if we are alive in q4 2025, we won't be capable of understanding the results from your experiment.

At least we can leave the results for the next group of peptide researchers from 2026 who discover our fossils.

"Hey boss, come look at these fibril ridden fossils! They seem to be holding some sort of scientific papers."

I agree, not sure where I will be in Q4-25 or if I will still be obsessed with peptides so no commitment.....

I was considering NOT testing the batches on incoming and just testing when i am ready to use them but the advice I got here was it's better to know what you have. I also don't even know if Triz is my long-term GLP. I am probably going to try Reta for maintentice if my heart can handle it. If this is the case I just threw a bunch of money way on stocking up and testing.

Justification: Its only a few months of buying name brand Zep.

 

[beefsteak]

Got my Zojirushi thermos in. Threw in my yolink thermometer to test things out and it stopped temperature swings completely. I'll make a 3d printed vial holder for it over the weekend and share it here once it's done. Will spray it with shellac to prevent small plastic pieces from leaching onto the vials. It should be able to hold at least 30-40 vials stacked.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BTSYQ5D4

 

[GimmeABreak]

Got my Zojirushi thermos in. Threw in my yolink thermometer to test things out and it stopped temperature swings completely. I'll make a 3d printed vial holder for it over the weekend and share it here once it's done. Will spray it with shellac to prevent small plastic pieces from leaching onto the vials. It should be able to hold at least 30-40 vials stacked.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BTSYQ5D4

View attachment 3476

Looks good. Better buy a second thermos, you'll quickly fill it up.

 

[Lullabytreehugger]

Alright everyone, I realize I may not have been clear before. The numbers I shared are extrapolated from the existing knowledge we have on the topic, and they're the most accurate estimates we can provide right now.

If you’re looking for hard, factual numbers, new studies would need to be conducted, so feel free to start research and share your findings!

I didn’t mean to spark a debate. I only posted them because having an approximate estimate is better than nothing, in my opinion.

For those interested in diving deeper, here are some links to relevant resources (in no specific order):

• Peptide Stability and Potential Degradation Pathways
• New insights into the protein stabilizing effects of trehalose by comparing with sucrose
• Alternative Excipients for Protein Stabilization in Protein Therapeutics: Overcoming the Limitations of Polysorbates
• Effectiveness of Lyoprotectants in Protein Stabilization During Lyophilization
• For Lyophilization, Excipients Really Do Matter
• Lyophilization Technology for Improving Stability of Small and Large Molecules
• Mechanical Behavior and Structure of Freeze-Dried Cakes
• A great book I plan on purchasing at some point - Protein Formulation and Delivery

You are one smart cookie matey! An asset to these forums! Thank you so much!
May I ask are you a pharmacist or a microbiologist or something along these lines?

 

[Lullabytreehugger]

No my guy I was not being sarcastic.
Actually I wanted to ask after you reconstitute sema or reta. If kept in the fridge after 4 months how much % do you lose?

 

[Dee X]

No my guy I was not being sarcastic.
Actually I wanted to ask after you reconstitute sema or reta. If kept in the fridge after 4 months how much % do you lose?

The best way to know is to get it tested now and then after 4 months 🙂

 

[GimmeABreak]

The best way to know is to get it tested now and then after 4 months 🙂

I plan to do this next October with one of my freezer vials of Tirz that I just had tested. It will give me a better idea of whether I need to toss/sell my stash and start over or if I am good for another year or two. I expect (hope) to lose only a mg or two.

 

[MingHenry]

I had a public Discord discussion with a chemist who is active on Peppys and in PTDS testing server and on various Discord channels - and I've looked at the PTDS testing on frozen/fridge/room temp, and because I'm not a scientist, I could only read the graphs and sort of surmise, so when I asked him if I needed to be doing more than a manual defrost freezer, essential oil cases, EO cases in 2 baggies with desiccant packages, he said it was probably overkill. The peps don't freeze, there is no water left in them after the lyophilization process - or should not be. They are vacuum sealed - or should be, and so won't be affected by moisture - if not vacuum sealed not much can be done about that. He said keep them in the freezer as cold as possible for long term. Refrigerator for in-use. Yes, avoid freezer/room temp, freezer/room temp. Vacuum sealing not necessary, except for one's own comfort. Thermoses and 3d boxes and all of that, not necessary, my baggies that hold my EO cases, not necessary, nor are the desiccant packages. I am keeping the baggies and des. packs because why not. But after yesterday, I felt better about how I am storing the increasingly large stash of GLPs and other non-GLP peps. So much better that I ordered 4 more EO cases and this time skipped Amazon and went to Aliexpress.

 

[MingHenry]

I plan to do this next October with one of my freezer vials of Tirz that I just had tested. It will give me a better idea of whether I need to toss/sell my stash and start over or if I am good for another year or two. I expect (hope) to lose only a mg or two.

I hope you'll post that testing! Would be great to see and to know!

 

[GimmeABreak]

I had a public Discord discussion with a chemist who is active on Peppys and in PTDS testing server and on various Discord channels - and I've looked at the PTDS testing on frozen/fridge/room temp, and because I'm not a scientist, I could only read the graphs and sort of surmise, so when I asked him if I needed to be doing more than a manual defrost freezer, essential oil cases, EO cases in 2 baggies with desiccant packages, he said it was probably overkill. The peps don't freeze, there is no water left in them after the lyophilization process - or should not be. They are vacuum sealed - or should be, and so won't be affected by moisture - if not vacuum sealed not much can be done about that. He said keep them in the freezer as cold as possible for long term. Refrigerator for in-use. Yes, avoid freezer/room temp, freezer/room temp. Vacuum sealing not necessary, except for one's own comfort. Thermoses and 3d boxes and all of that, not necessary, my baggies that hold my EO cases, not necessary, nor are the desiccant packages. I am keeping the baggies and des. packs because why not. But after yesterday, I felt better about how I am storing the increasingly large stash of GLPs and other non-GLP peps. So much better that I ordered 4 more EO cases and this time skipped Amazon and went to Aliexpress.

Maybe overkill, but why not?

I have read several sources that freeze/thaw cycles degrade the peps. Obviously, the freeze/thaw cycle in a frost free freezer adds to this but the temp swing in a small freezer (even manual defrost) are pretty big, Just opening the door and adding room temp products will bring the temp well above zero. With the thermos my peps stay at exactly -8.7 degrees over a 24 hour period. The desiccant packs keep the relative humidity at 6.7-6.8%. This $35 investment is a pretty low cost insurance policy.