Igf -1 level (score ) before and after

[wildweasel]

I've tried both hgh and tesamorelin, which is how I was able to compare them for my needs of boosting igf-1 z-score to around +2. You speak in population statistics, which is useless to my n=1 case, and will be useless for others too.

These igf1 increase levels for hgh are AVERAGE numbers, you need to confirm they work for you. Good starting point, but not everyone will have 100% increase on 2iu hgh. Patient population also matters, as the tesamorelin study included only hiv patients, whose igf1 is low compared to healthy population.

You are absolutely correct that everyone is different and if someone really wants to know how they react to something they need to get their own blood work done

If anybody wants to gauge how they will react to something they should prefer population statistics instead of an anecdote from someone who doesn’t represent the general population

 

[wildweasel]

Jesus Christ, man. I didnt know you were a Michelin rated Master Chef. That's some cooking.
Just one question though, even if somatomedin is my favorite hormone, why would someone want to increase it systemically, when there are other viable options out there now? It's the main reason I am so anti-GH. I am really sensitive to it as well. That z-score thing is a concern. Thousands of biohackers have had fluid retention, joint pain, and other issues due to GH-mediated systemic IGF increase, especially without the gear to increase receptor action.. I still remember Sly's Aussie GH scandal during Rambo 4 production. He was so bloated.

most people chase it for fat mobilization, recovery, and hyperplasia.

Fasted gh pulses cause the body to mobilize fat making it easier to get rid of. Strong gh throughout the night aids in recovering from muscular stress such as training/exercise, and it also helps with signaling to grow new cells, especially around collagen, ligament, and muscle fibers

 

[hodlplus]

Started at 2 and stayed at. You won't see much increase in insulin at 2iu...

copy that good to know, will likely be jumping to 1iu, monitoring for a bit then quickly moving to 2.

 

[Smiter]

hyperplasia

My favorite. Superior to hypertrophy. But I was under the impression that somatomedin through its activation of MGF was the primary driver of this. Is it not so?

 

[wildweasel]

My favorite. Superior to hypertrophy. But I was under the impression that somatomedin through its activation of MGF was the primary driver of this. Is it not so?

You’re not wrong, mgf plays a role in hyperplasia, and personally, I’m not even convinced that gh plays a huge role in it, but it is what the mass monsters of the 80s believed and what many body builders still use gh to chase

 

[Smiter]

You’re not wrong, mgf plays a role in hyperplasia, and personally, I’m not even convinced that gh plays a huge role in it, but it is what the mass monsters of the 80s believed and what many body builders still use gh to chase

Ah, the days before the discovery of MGF.. Yeah, my understanding is that hyperplasia occurs at the end of the muscle fibers first where the influx of satellite cells cause division and new neural connections at the junction. This is the most common theory though it is not confirmed yet. All they know for certain is that while lab studies did not find hyperplasia in humans, they did find hyperplasia in strength-trained, experienced athletes. I looked for patterns in those who had it. That's how I learned about Charles Poliquin. His training principles seemed to indicate the presence of hyperplasia. I am not certain but time under tension, overcoming isometrics, and slow eccentric stretches at the end of a muscle's movement seems to drive it the most.
P.S:- Try the Poliquin biceps curl...It's an annihilator, trust me.

 

[wildweasel]

Ah, the days before the discovery of MGF.. Yeah, my understanding is that hyperplasia occurs at the end of the muscle fibers first where the influx of satellite cells cause division and new neural connections at the junction. This is the most common theory though it is not confirmed yet. All they know for certain is that while lab studies did not find hyperplasia in humans, they did find hyperplasia in strength-trained, experienced athletes. I looked for patterns in those who had it. That's how I learned about Charles Poliquin. His training principles seemed to indicate the presence of hyperplasia. I am not certain but time under tension, overcoming isometrics, and slow eccentric stretches at the end of a muscle's movement seems to drive it the most.
P.S:- Try the Poliquin biceps curl...It's an annihilator, trust me.

Nice I’m going to give the Poliquin biceps curl a shot tomorrow it looks killer thanks for sharing

 

[Smiter]

Nice I’m going to give the Poliquin biceps curl a shot tomorrow it looks killer thanks for sharing

Poliquin curls, Zottman curls, and my own patented Androck curls...thats my biceps routine. If I can lift my arm the next day, I have failed...lol

 

[GLiPtest]

Not going to reply to anyone specific here

---

First, claiming that a secretagogue is going to increase IGF-1 levels more than HGH itself is absolute non-sense, whos supposed to believe that.

Second, Z-Score it not a useful metric to track in this discussion. Z score is age-adjustd standard deviations above or below mean. It's a lot tougher to boost 0 -> 1 than it is 1 -> 2.

You want to follow IGF-1 Levels compared to your personal baseline, thats the useful metric to follow, not Z-score, thats only useful for tracking how prone someone may be to developing acromegaly or some other GH-related disease when compared to the general population.

Tesa was found to increase IGF-1 levels vs placebo by 50% at 1mg and 65% at 2mg: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16052083/

Another Tesa trial examined only 2mg daily dosing and concluded that it increased IGF-1 levels by 85% https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa072375

This study on HGH concluded that 2iu led to 70-100% increase in IGF1 levels, and 4iu led to 150-200% inrease in IGF-1 levels: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/3288652/

Tesa 1mg -- +50% IGF-1
Tesa 2mg -- +65%-80% IGF-1
HGH 2iu -- +70%-100% IGF-1
HGH 4iu -- +150%-200% IGF-1

If we assume that 1mg tesa = 2iu hgh in cost, its clear that hgh provides the more cost-effective means of improving IGF-1

Wrong.

rHGH doesn’t “amplify” endogenous GH production, it replaces it. The IGF-1 response doesn’t increase by some percentage of the starting point the way Tesa does.

In other words, depending on GH sensitivity, rHGH will increase IGF by x points, while Tesa will increase existing IGF by x percent.

It is entirely possible for 2iu of Tesa to increase IGF by far more than 2iu of rHGH.

Then there’s the loss of GH receptor sensitivity from continuous exposure to GH when using rHGH, while Tesa maintains natural GH pulsatile release, which is why at equivalent IGF levels, Tesa results in more visceral fat lipolysis than rHGH.

It’s common for peak body composition improvements on rHGH to reverse moderately after long term use. Plenty of studies demonstrate this effect.

The only thing rHGH can do that Tesa can’t is push you far into supraphysiologic ranges, by using a high dose, along with all the joys of, over the long term, becoming as “handsome” as all the wide nosed, thick lipped, scrotum scalped, protruding lower jawed, enlarged tongue lisping, struggling to breath, permanent sleep apnea suffering bodybuilders walking around with undiagnosed acromegally,

 

[Steve_Burns]

This is a great thread. Curious to hear folks opinion on this.

If one has natural IGF-1 levels at 257, would taking Tesa or HGH provide any benefit?

43year old male.

 

[Meritocrat]

This is a great thread. Curious to hear folks opinion on this.

If one has natural IGF-1 levels at 257, would taking Tesa or HGH provide any benefit?

43year old male.

we are almost the same age. Any external hormone would increase the natural amount of that hormone in our body. Then, it comes down to what benefit we are aiming for. They say Tesa is good for visceral fat loss. but I think it is too expensive for such a specific purpose, esp when there are alternatives. GH does have some benefits though the riskiness is no joke. Maybe we should zero in on the benefits we are seeking?

 

[Steve_Burns]

we are almost the same age. Any external hormone would increase the natural amount of that hormone in our body. Then, it comes down to what benefit we are aiming for. They say Tesa is good for visceral fat loss. but I think it is too expensive for such a specific purpose, esp when there are alternatives. GH does have some benefits though the riskiness is no joke. Maybe we should zero in on the benefits we are seeking?

What is your IGF-1 level though? I'm just wondering if Tesa would even benefit at all since I am above normal levels naturally and its just a secretagogue that pulses your existing GH release.

 

[IronCircuit]

Wrong.

rHGH doesn’t “amplify” endogenous GH production, it replaces it. The IGF-1 response doesn’t increase by some percentage of the starting point the way Tesa does.

In other words, depending on GH sensitivity, rHGH will increase IGF by x points, while Tesa will increase existing IGF by x percent.

It is entirely possible for 2iu of Tesa to increase IGF by far more than 2iu of rHGH.

Then there’s the loss of GH receptor sensitivity from continuous exposure to GH when using rHGH, while Tesa maintains natural GH pulsatile release, which is why at equivalent IGF levels, Tesa results in more visceral fat lipolysis than rHGH.

It’s common for peak body composition improvements on rHGH to reverse moderately after long term use. Plenty of studies demonstrate this effect.

The only thing rHGH can do that Tesa can’t is push you far into supraphysiologic ranges, by using a high dose, along with all the joys of, over the long term, becoming as “handsome” as all the wide nosed, thick lipped, scrotum scalped, protruding lower jawed, enlarged tongue lisping, struggling to breath, permanent sleep apnea suffering bodybuilders walking around with undiagnosed acromegally,

That said, at same IGF levels whether using HGH or Tesa, should the resultant subcutaneous fat loss be the same?

With Tesa, most of the studies were based on visceral fat loss, but HGH on the other hand is known for producing subq fat loss results.

Should the two compounds have similar results if in the same range?

 

[wildweasel]

Wrong.

rHGH doesn’t “amplify” endogenous GH production, it replaces it.

well thats super cool, but you are arguing something I didnt say lol.

i never said rhgh amplifies endogenous gh production. I very clearly said it amplifies endogenous IGF-1 production, which it does. These are two different things, igf1 is not hgh.

My post is explicitly about IGF-1 response, not endogenous GH production, no idea what you thought you read there champ.


My post compared observed IGF-1 increases from Tesamorelin and rHGH using published data. If you believe 2 mg Tesamorelin typically raises IGF-1 more than 2 IU rHGH, can you provide studies showing that? I was comparing IGF-1 outcomes and cost-effectiveness.

 

[WeezinDaJuice]

Blood test next Monday after 8 weeks on CJC/Ipa, 5 days nightly fasted, weekends off. Hoping for a IGF-1 improvement, but will report back either way.

Update as promised:

Baseline: IGF-1: 74, Z score: -1.1

8 weeks of CJC1295/Ipamorelin (4 weeks: 100mcg, 4 weeks: 200mcg) fasted nightly 5 days on/2 days off : IGF-1: 163, Z score: 0.6

For a 62M, I consider this mission accomplished as it puts me right in the
physiological sweet spot. Better sleep, building muscle, and, along with weekly injections of Vitamin R, shedding fat/losing weight.

 

[headsupsevenup]

This thread has been an awesome resource as I'm researching to get ready to start either Tesa or CJC/IPA. I'm getting a blood panel done at some point next week to see where my levels are, so all the info in here has been a great read to help me figure out what to do next!

 

[Tbagger]

At 42 years old, my IGF-1 was averaging out around 150 with a z score of +0.6. After approx 6 months of taking Tesa 2mg and Ipa 500mcg a day, my IGF-1 was up to 292 with z score +2.3. Now after a few months of switching to HGH 2iu daily, my IGF-1 is at 270 with z score +2.0.

I was actually expecting it to go up after switching to 2iu HGH but am happy with where it's currently at. I can always adjust it up or down if my needs change. But for now, I'm saving some money and feeling great without having to worry as much about intermittent fasting, meal timing, or nutrient partitioning which is really nice for maintenance and bulking.

 

[IronCircuit]

At 42 years old, my IGF-1 was averaging out around 150 with a z score of +0.6. After approx 6 months of taking Tesa 2mg and Ipa 500mcg a day, my IGF-1 was up to 292 with z score +2.3. Now after a few months of switching to HGH 2iu daily, my IGF-1 is at 270 with z score +2.0.

I was actually expecting it to go up after switching to 2iu HGH but am happy with where it's currently at. I can always adjust it up or down if my needs change. But for now, I'm saving some money and feeling great without having to worry as much about intermittent fasting, meal timing, or nutrient partitioning which is really nice for maintenance and bulking.

Hey man. 40 years old here with IGF: 157, Z score: +0.2.
I just started Tesa/Ipa at 2mg/300mcg this week. Hoping to get a +2.0 Z score. Were you on a 5/2 dosing schedule or did you take every day?

If I don't get the results I'm hoping for I plan on moving to 2-3iu of HGH. Even with a lower number, are you happier with taking HGH instead? Do you plan on increasing the dose at all? I notice you mention better costs, but how are the results differing for you?

 

[Tbagger]

Hey man. 40 years old here with IGF: 157, Z score: +0.2.
I just started Tesa/Ipa at 2mg/300mcg this week. Hoping to get a +2.0 Z score. Were you on a 5/2 dosing schedule or did you take every day?

If I don't get the results I'm hoping for I plan on moving to 2-3iu of HGH. Even with a lower number, are you happier with taking HGH instead? Do you plan on increasing the dose at all? I notice you mention better costs, but how are the results differing for you?

I take it every day. The 5/2 schedule is bro-science. It was never studied nor prescribed at that schedule. I think the sleep was a little better on the tesa/ipa, but overall feel about the same on HGH. I will bump it up for cycles, but I think 2iu is my cruise dose.

 

[RadicalCrimson]

57M, 181 IGF-1, Z score +0.7.
I started applying @Researcher6076's protocol consistently since 6/1, after a lot of trial and error:

• 2mg tesa mornings 3 days/week
• 200mg CJC no DAC/200mg ipa evenings 5 days/week

New blood tests on 7/9, stay tuned.

In a previous attempt, ipa killed my sleep, both with tesa and with CJC.
After a week getting used to CJC+ipa in the morning, I moved it to evenings, and now I get the sleep benefits.
I'm using Jardiance to combat the water retention, but only a couple times a week, otherwise my glucose gets too low.
I'm using a Lingo glucose monitor, better than Stelo.

 

[dpo08]

Curious about tesa/ipa vs hgh and the igf-1 increase. I'm 36 yo male, took 2mg tesa 300 mcg ipa and my IGF-1 went over 500 with a z-score of 3.1. decreased to just 1mg tesa and maintained a z score of 2.0 for the duration of the cycle (3-4 months). Curious if tesa is getting my IGF-1 that high, if there is any benefits i could get from switching to HGH or is tesa just a safer and better option for me? Have not been able to find any guidance on tesa vs cjc vs hgh if z scores are the same.

 

[Memo85]

Curious about tesa/ipa vs hgh and the igf-1 increase. I'm 36 yo male, took 2mg tesa 300 mcg ipa and my IGF-1 went over 500 with a z-score of 3.1. decreased to just 1mg tesa and maintained a z score of 2.0 for the duration of the cycle (3-4 months). Curious if tesa is getting my IGF-1 that high, if there is any benefits i could get from switching to HGH or is tesa just a safer and better option for me? Have not been able to find any guidance on tesa vs cjc vs hgh if z scores are the same.

How did you feel during that time of having 500 score and 3.1?

 

[dpo08]

How did you feel during that time of having 500 score and 3.1?

Had some wrist/joint pain which is common but otherwise felt fine.