Freezing BAC water

[stickfigure]

New to peptides, so sorry if this was covered.

Is anyone freezing their BAC water?
I want to set aside a supply of BAC water in case it becomes unavailable for purchase.
I am not confident the rubber stopper and plastic vial will not begin releasing chemicals if stored for extended duration (think years), so I would like to freeze the vials to -80 C to slow down all chemical reactions.

I got one of the used vaccine freezers off eBay for storing the powder. I am thinking of storing the BAC water in the same freezer.

Has anyone had problems with freezing? Have the vials survived the freezer without cracking?
My plan is to freeze the vials upright, so that when water expands it compresses the air on top of the vial. Benzyl alcohol should freeze next at about -15 C.

I understand I'll have to roll the vial after thawing to mix the solution back together. I am planning on filtering down to 0.22 uM when reconstituting, so sucking air in on thawing is not a big concern.

 

[Emmwhyyy]

New to peptides, so sorry if this was covered.

Is anyone freezing their BAC water?
I want to set aside a supply of BAC water in case it becomes unavailable for purchase.
I am not confident the rubber stopper and plastic vial will not begin releasing chemicals if stored for extended duration (think years), so I would like to freeze the vials to -80 C to slow down all chemical reactions.

I got one of the used vaccine freezers off eBay for storing the powder. I am thinking of storing the BAC water in the same freezer.

Has anyone had problems with freezing? Have the vials survived the freezer without cracking?
My plan is to freeze the vials upright, so that when water expands it compresses the air on top of the vial. Benzyl alcohol should freeze next at about -15 C.

I understand I'll have to roll the vial after thawing to mix the solution back together. I am planning on filtering down to 0.22 uM when reconstituting, so sucking air in on thawing is not a big concern.

Sounds like a 7th grade science project, I’ll let you know in two days lol

 

[milos]

Freezing Bac water is like preparing for world war 3 already 😉

 

[brentm]

MSDS sheet says to store at room temp. No refrigerator. Presumably no freezer.

 

[stickfigure]

Freezing Bac water is like preparing for world war 3 already 😉

I am sure Big Pharma is preparing for all-out war on peptides. I want my supplies to last at least until the generics are available.

 

[stickfigure]

MSDS sheet says to store at room temp. No refrigerator. Presumably no freezer.

I am well aware of what it says. There are also reasons for the date on the vial - materials begin to deteriorate over time. If you've worked with plastics on an older car, you should know what happens with plastics and rubber as they age. The water itself is very stable. Benzyl alcohol is also very stable under normal conditions - it's vapor pressure keeps it from evaporation almost indefinitely at room temperature. My concern is about the vial. It will not last as long as it's contents.

 

[brentm]

I am well aware of what it says. There are also reasons for the date on the vial - materials begin to deteriorate over time. If you've worked with plastics on an older car, you should know what happens with plastics and rubber as they age. The water itself is very stable. Benzyl alcohol is a lot more stable than water - it's vapor pressure keeps it from evaporation almost indefinitely at room temperature. My concern is about the vial. It will not last as long as it's contents.

It's also probably the easiest to component to replace.

The rubber could also shrink enough in a deep freeze and break the seal. Doubtful though.

Try it. It's cheap and usually obtainable. Worse case you could make your own in a pinch.

 

[milos]

I am sure Big Pharma is preparing for all-out war on peptides. I want my supplies to last at least until the generics are available.

don't worry bac water was here long before GLP1s and it has a much wider use, also its not difficult to make so I don't think there will ever be situation when you will be unable to get some, in the worst case order it from CN

but I would say it will easily last 5 years if not more even at room temperature, as long as you don't open it, its supposed to contain high quality medical grade materials for packaging ... however its just my guess, I cant really back up my claim with any citation

 

[scarywood75]

Don't freeze it, benzyl alcohol will get destroyed. It should be kept at room temp.

What you could do however is freezing sterile water, than once you need a bottle you unfreeze it and add benzyl alcohol to it.

I am however not sure whether there's any benefits in freezing it for preservation

 

[stickfigure]

Don't freeze it, benzyl alcohol will get destroyed. It should be kept at room temp.

What you could do however is freezing sterile water, than once you need a bottle you unfreeze it and add benzyl alcohol to it.

I am however not sure whether there's any benefits in freezing it for preservation

Can you describe the science behind 'being destroyed' claim? I understand it will separate from water due to different freezing temperatures, but what makes you think it will get destroyed?

 

[milos]

I am however not sure whether there's any benefits in freezing it for preservation

yeah, there is not, it is sterile after all, except the packaging disintegrate somehow by exposure to sunlight or high heat for example, fridge should be a safe place

 

[scarywood75]

Can you describe the science behind 'being destroyed' claim? I understand it will separate from water due to different freezing temperatures, but what makes you think it will get destroyed?

Benzyl alcohol itself is fragile to freezing, it happens at about -15c.

When it freezes, it crystallises and compromise its molecular form

 

[scarywood75]

yeah, there is not, it is sterile after all, except the packaging disintegrate somehow by exposure to sunlight or high heat for example, fridge should be a safe place

Yeah and I doubt the container itself will last longer in the freezer, I actually think it may be worse for the stopper

 

[nurseratchit]

Well, you already have your freezer so you probably want to use it but it's not necessary for most lyophilized peptides and not recommended for bac water. I was looking at freezers a while back but then kept seeing all these posts about people worrying about their power going out and saving their peps because they will degrade with repeated freeze/thaw cycles...so now you need a generator too! Most lyophilized peptides will last for several years in a cool dark place.

 

[scarywood75]

Well, you already have your freezer so you probably want to use it but it's not necessary for most lyophilized peptides and not recommended for bac water. I was looking at freezers a while back but then kept seeing all these posts about people worrying about their power going out and saving their peps because they will degrade with repeated freeze/thaw cycles...so now you need a generator too! Lyophilized peptides will last for several years in a cool dark place.

This is true, lyophilized peptides are pretty resilient.

It's reconstituted vials that we should worry the most about

 

[Dee X]

Well, you already have your freezer so you probably want to use it but it's not necessary for most lyophilized peptides and not recommended for bac water. I was looking at freezers a while back but then kept seeing all these posts about people worrying about their power going out and saving their peps because they will degrade with repeated freeze/thaw cycles...so now you need a generator too! Lyophilized peptides will last for several years in a cool dark place.

Don't forget that you need a backup generator for your primary generator. You never know. 👁️👄👁️

 

[nurseratchit]

Don't forget that you need a backup generator for your primary generator. You never know. 👁️👄👁️

I’m saving my money for more peps!

 

[stickfigure]

Don't forget that you need a backup generator for your primary generator. You never know. 👁️👄👁️

I got everything important protected by extended battery UPS units and I've never lost power for long enough for them to run out of battery run time, so power is not a concern. Besides it takes hours for the freezer to heat up from -80 to -15 when the benzyl alcohol starts thawing

 

[stickfigure]

Benzyl alcohol itself is fragile to freezing, it happens at about -15c.

When it freezes, it crystallises and compromise its molecular form

Nothing bad happens when it freezes. Quite the opposite.

Benzyl alcohol decomposes in presense of oxygen, but speed of decomposition is exponentially slower at lower temperatures due to lower entropy.



Here is Arrhenius equation:

k = Ae^(-(Ea/RT)),
Where:

• k = rate constant
• A = pre-exponential factor (frequency of collisions)
• Ea= activation energy (in joules per mole)
• R = gas constant
• T = temperature (in Kelvin)
  
  
  Room temperature is 298.15 degrees K
  Freezer temperature is 193.15 degrees K
  
  
  Depending on Activation Energy (Ea, let's say it's between 60k J/mol and 100k J/mol), benzyl alcohol decomposes at -80 C between 500000 times to 3 million times slower than at 25 C.
  
  Butyl rubber stopper shrinks about 2 % at -80 C compared to 25 C if I got the expansion coefficient right.

 

[scarywood75]

Nothing bad happens when it freezes. Quite the opposite.

Benzyl alcohol decomposes in presense of oxygen, but speed of decomposition is exponentially slower at lower temperatures due to lower entropy.



Here is Arrhenius equation:

k = Ae^(-(Ea/RT)),
Where:

• k = rate constant
• A = pre-exponential factor (frequency of collisions)
• Ea= activation energy (in joules per mole)
• R = gas constant
• T = temperature (in Kelvin)
  
  
  Room temperature is 298.15 degrees K
  Freezer temperature is 193.15 degrees K
  
  
  Depending on Activation Energy (Ea, let's say it's between 60k J/mol and 100k J/mol), benzyl alcohol decomposes at -80 C between 500000 times to 3 million times slower than at 25 C.
  
  Butyl rubber stopper shrinks about 2 % at -80 C compared to 25 C if I got the expansion coefficient right.

You are right, but this is only with pure Benzyl, in water, it'll cause crystallisation, also the container itself is usually not freezer safe due to it being suggested to be kept at room temperature.

So yes, pure benzyl in a proper container is OK to freeze, but most have it mixed with water so it's no good

 

[stickfigure]

Water and benzyl alcohol have different freezing points. When freezing, water will freeze first at 0°C, forming ice on top of the vial because ice is less dense than water. Once all the water has frozen, it will consist of ice crystals floating in liquid benzyl alcohol. Then, at -15°C, the benzyl alcohol begins to freeze, following a similar pattern as the water. Although they separate during freezing, they will easily mix back together once thawed. There is nothing in the ice crystals that could damage the liquid benzyl alcohol. Below -15°C, two types of crystals will form in the vial: frozen water and frozen benzyl alcohol.

The molecular bonds of water and benzyl alcohol are much stronger than those of ice crystals, so ice cannot damage the molecules.

The biggest risk is the pressure from the expanding water, which could crack the plastic vial. That's why I was asking if anyone has had success with this. I’m not concerned about the vial’s contents surviving freezing—science indicates that the contents will actually be much more stable when frozen.

However, if the ice pushes air out of the vial during freezing, there is a chance outside air will be drawn in during thawing, which could introduce bacteria. This is a serious concern for anyone using bacteriostatic water (BAC) as is. In my case, though, I am filtering the reconstituted peptide with a syringe filter, so any bacterial contamination will be addressed during filtration.

 

[scarywood75]

Water and benzyl alcohol have different freezing points. When freezing, water will freeze first at 0°C, forming ice on top of the vial because ice is less dense than water. Once all the water has frozen, it will consist of ice crystals floating in liquid benzyl alcohol. Then, at -15°C, the benzyl alcohol begins to freeze, following a similar pattern as the water. Although they separate during freezing, they will easily mix back together once thawed. There is nothing in the ice crystals that could damage the liquid benzyl alcohol. Below -15°C, two types of crystals will form in the vial: frozen water and frozen benzyl alcohol.

The molecular bonds of water and benzyl alcohol are much stronger than those of ice crystals, so ice cannot damage the molecules.

The biggest risk is the pressure from the expanding water, which could crack the plastic vial. That's why I was asking if anyone has had success with this. I’m not concerned about the vial’s contents surviving freezing—science indicates that the contents will actually be much more stable when frozen.

However, if the ice pushes air out of the vial during freezing, there is a chance outside air will be drawn in during thawing, which could introduce bacteria. This is a serious concern for anyone using bacteriostatic water (BAC) as is. In my case, though, I am filtering the reconstituted peptide with a syringe filter, so any bacterial contamination will be addressed during filtration.

Yeah I don't agree, otherwise Hospira will suggest to freeze it if it were to be better, heck they don't even suggest to put it in the fridge

I would think a multi billion company knows better than us how to store their product

 

[stickfigure]

You are welcome to fact check my statements using your favorite LLM (including ones indexing scientific literature) or any other sources.

I've told you why Lilly would not suggest freezing - potential bacterial contamination on thawing and liquid separation - someone could draw pure benzyl alcohol if the vial is between 0 and -15 C, which would not be good. Both are valid concerns, but not for my use case, as explained in detail above.

 

[nurseratchit]

Sounds like you already have your plan in place so not sure why you posed the original question. Good luck to you.

 

[stickfigure]

I've asked if anyone had bad luck with plastic vials cracking. I don't want to find out that my doomsday supply is ruined when I need it. But I've frozen a couple test 30ml vials. I've decided to be extra cautious and froze it to -18 first to relieve stress while plastic is not yet too brittle. I will continue to -80 once they spend a few days at -18.