Legal chat: Are we co-conspirators?

[noteablequotable]

This is not a conversation we should be having, lol, but I think there is a distinction to be made between an unapproved drug, and a drug produced and distributed through unapproved channels.

That's all I'm going to say. Dipping from this conversation as well

 

[stickfigure]

Is Tirzapetide, or Retatrutide, both synthetic incretin mimetics not drugs in context of FD&C act? What is the area of law you practice? Are you an expert in FDA regulation compliance? I want to understand what makes you so confident in your opinion. Do you have case law examples to support your theory?

 

[GtownBrown]

I’m an attorney. You’re wrong. There is no section of the code that makes buying, selling, or engaging in research of research peptides unlawful.

Conspiracy requires an overt act in furtherance of a crime. If there is no underlying crime, no conspiracy.

Full stop. Do not pass go, do not collect $200.

You’re also all over Discord describing research peptides as “counterfeit medication.” You’re just flat wrong.

 

[GLP69]

Police have limited resources. They're worried about stopping the selling. They don't care about small time buyers. This same type of thing has been going on with illicit drugs on the dark web for a long time and I don't think I've ever once heard of someone getting scooped up because the police got their info from a seller getting busted. It simply doesn't happen.

This Jessica person comes across as the exact type of person who would drop some vague line about "advice of council" to spook people into leaving her alone. If she was actually lawyered up she would have completely disappeared from this scene as any real lawyer would have told her to get a million miles away from any of this.

 

[YoYoFat]

Will that change if EL or NN manages to get them classified as biologics? (I remember seeing somewhere that they're trying but probably won't succeed. Just being curious.)

I think you mean that they are trying to reclassify their name brand drugs as biologics. That would have no impact on peptides in and of themselves remaining peptides.

 

[YoYoFat]

Is Tirzapetide, or Retatrutide, both synthetic incretin mimetics not drugs in context of FD&C act? What is the area of law you practice? Are you an expert in FDA regulation compliance? I want to understand what makes you so confident in your opinion. Do you have case law examples to support your theory?

Pretty hard to prove a negative. Read the code. Read the case law.

You’re the one making the claims of illegality, it’s on YOU to back that up.

It doesn’t exist.

 

[YoYoFat]

@GtownBrown You seem to be having some technical difficulties with quote responding. I know what I said. You don’t need to regurgitate it.

 

[GtownBrown]

I’m an attorney. You’re wrong. There is no section of the code that makes buying, selling, or engaging in research of research peptides unlawful.

Conspiracy requires an overt act in furtherance of a crime. If there is no underlying crime, no conspiracy.

Full stop. Do not pass go, do not collect $200.

You’re also all over Discord describing research peptides as “counterfeit medication.” You’re just flat wrong.

If it’s not a crime to import it, why do the sellers conceal what it is? Why do we use anonymous sites to procure it? Why use crypto to buy it? And how is paying money to a smuggler of legend drugs not an overt act? There IS a crime involved, likely several. I don’t know how you can say it’s not, you being an attorney and all. The one sitting next to me right now wants to know where you got your law degree.

 

[YoYoFat]

This is not a conversation we should be having, lol, but I think there is a distinction to be made between an unapproved drug, and a drug produced and distributed through unapproved channels.

That's all I'm going to say. Dipping from this conversation as well

There is also a difference between a research peptide and a drug, whether approved or unapproved.

Just as there is a difference between a vitamin and a drug, or a supplement and a drug.

 

[YoYoFat]

If it’s not a crime to import it, why do the sellers conceal what it is? Why do we use anonymous sites to procure it? Why use crypto to buy it? And how is paying money to a smuggler of legend drugs not an overt act? There IS a crime involved, likely several. I don’t know how you can say it’s not, you being an attorney and all. The one sitting next to me right now wants to know where you got your law degree.

Using the first response to an Google search isn’t even decent research.

Peptides aren’t legend drugs. Peptides are ingredients in some drugs. Apples aren’t pies. Apples are ingredients in some pies. Apples are to peptides what pies are to drugs.

Why don’t you ask the one sitting next to you for the citations that support the claim that the sale or purchase of research peptides is unlawful. Or that the purchase of vitamins or supplements is unlawful. Since vitamins and supplements are also ingredients in drugs.

I’ll wait.

Actually, I won’t. I don’t engage people who resort to personal attacks. I quite literally ignore them.

 

[penewbie]

Ask the one sitting next to you for the citations that support the claim that purchase of research peptides is unlawful. Or that the purchase of vitamins or supplements is unlawful. Since vitamins and supplements are also ingredients in FDA approved drugs.

I’ll wait.

Actually, I won’t. I don’t engage people who resort to personal attacks. I quite literally ignore them.

You can't say you ignore these people in the same breath as you responding to them.

Well, you can, but it just makes you look silly.

 

[noteablequotable]

There is also a difference between a research peptide and a drug, whether approved or unapproved.

Just as there is a difference between a vitamin and a drug, or a supplement and a drug.

Agree.

There are a lot of small distinctions to make that will be difficult for anyone who isn't an expert in this area of law to understand. I am not sure why the OP decided to start this topic because there is no way non-experts can come to any reasonable conclusion. Best outcome is a bunch of slap fighting which is a weird way to spend the weekend after Christmas.

I can say wholeheartedly that I don't believe I'm doing anything illegal or I wouldn't be doing it.

 

[YoYoFat]

I can say wholeheartedly that I don't believe I'm doing anything illegal or I wouldn't be doing it.

LOL, same x100000.

 

[YoYoFat]

You can't say you ignore these people in the same breath as you responding to them.

Well, you can, but it just makes you look silly.

That was my last and final response to that person, I put them on ignore as soon as I responded.

So no, it doesn’t make me silly. But it sure makes you look that way by choosing that, of all things, to pick at.

 

[YoYoFat]

Agree.

There are a lot of small distinctions to make that will be difficult for anyone who isn't an expert in this area of law to understand. I am not sure why the OP decided to start this topic because there is no way non-experts can come to any reasonable conclusion. Best outcome is a bunch of slap fighting which is a weird way to spend the weekend after Christmas.

I can say wholeheartedly that I don't believe I'm doing anything illegal or I wouldn't be doing it.

Oh, but he’s sitting next to a lawyer! And that lawyer is telling him he’s engaged in a criminal conspiracy! And yet, he’s still doing it? Ummm, okay.

I’d have to link to law journals and conferences to back my ish up, and I’m just not in the mood to doxx myself. Because some pep people be crazy.

There’s a lot in this space that’s in flux, so obviously regs and code may change in the future, but as of right now, as Nene Leakes would say, I said what I said.

 

[keangkong]

I was just on discord talking about the implosion of the CZGB. The organizer says she’s receiving threats, so she shut the whole thing down and refuses to talk to anyone “upon advice of counsel.” I feared this would happen when people started getting angry about how slow she was to communicate and ship. Then the “no peptide” vials hit and calls to “report her” became more frequent.

I am of the mind that we at the very bottom of the supply chain are complicit in the crime of smuggling illegal goods because we commissioned it with our cash and our orders. Others say we are blameless because it’s not illegal to use or possess peptides. I think it’s about intent, in a legal sense. I am of the view that we should support the organizer, no matter her personal failings, because she is only doing (however badly) what we asked her to do. We didn’t want the risk, so we paid her to take it for us, for a fee. Is that not conspiracy?

As a criminal defense attorney, although not one who practices federal law, I disagree with your legal interpretation. From your post, I believe you feel some moral responsibility for what happened. I offer no opinion on the moral issues involved.

 

[penewbie]

That was my last and final response to that person, I put them on ignore as soon as I responded.

So no, it doesn’t make me silly. But it sure makes you look that way by choosing that, of all things, to pick at.

Haha. The pettiness is... *chef's kiss*

This forum is great.

 

[Vicki]

I think we should delete this topic when it's settle down . Just in case you know lol

 

[YoYoFat]

As a criminal defense attorney, although not one who practices federal law, I disagree with your legal interpretation. From your post, I believe you feel some moral responsibility for what happened. I offer no opinion on the moral issues involved.

I got the impression he was trying to tamp down on the pitchforks coming after the CZGB lady. Why, I don’t know. But you may be on to something.

 

[BenevolentMrTang]

Is anyone familiar with the prosecutorial practices of the various United States Attorneys located throughout our nation? I am. I actually wrote out a response that was really damn long, with all kinds of hypotheticals, but I just deleted it because there is really no point even in discussing it. The practical reality is this: federal prosecutors do not handle small cases. What is a small case is open to some interpretation, but in many jurisdictions, the threshold for financial loss is $100k before they want to get involved. Small-time drug dealers are not on their radar and won't ever be. No US Attorney will ever prosecute someone for buying Chinese peptides on the Internet for individual use, even if that US Attorney can cook up a legal theory that might actually work.