Not seeing progress in 2 weeks.

Ok, you're right. You're never going to find a study that states the exact words you want, in the exact order you want them.

Nor have you produced what you requested of me: evidence that not eating enough for an extended period of time doesn't cause weight loss stalls, "Not some organization or a particular doctor's personal suggestions, an actual study".

I've already wasted too much of my time getting sucked into responding to circular arguments. I'm moving on.
I never believed that not eating enough for an extended period of time doesn't cause weight loss stalls. Just that it doesn't cause more stalls than moderate calorie restriction. And all the evidence needed to support my beliefs were already provided by you.

So you dropped a bucket of random studies that you haven't read, I took the time and effort in good faith to read through them (even though you obviously haven't), found and summarized the snippets relevant to this conversation, and found that they proved you wrong. Now instead of changing your mind based on provided evidence, you double down on your (wrong) position, type a smug reply and leave.

Not at all surprised. Every time I ask for any proof of this particular claim this is how the conversation goes every time.
 
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Update. Down 4 pounds since posting this a few days ago. Guess my body was wanting to recalibrate before it let go of more. Thanks all for the info and common sense talk!

All of this endo kerfuffle about orange cap T30 is making me wonder if mine was from that batch. I got it in mid Feb from a reseller. (Tydes) It did have an orange cap. It gave me terrible runs and burps but since that's on the potential side effects I didn't think anything of it. But since switching to the different T60 vial I've had zero side effects to the extent I thought it wasn't working or an incorrect dose, even though it has been. I wonder if I did get a vial with more endos and that was making my side effects extra harsh. I'll never know, but it's interesting to think about.
 
Patience. This is a marathon, not a sprint. You’ll have stretches with no change. Your body needs to adjust all the things that are going on inside. You just lost 19 lbs. The scale doesn’t tell the whole story.
 
After 19 lbs of weight loss in 9 weeks, 2 weeks of no change is totally normal and should just be ignored. Weight normally fluctuates a kilo or 2 up and down with fluid balance, and initial weight loss often has up to 10 lbs of weight loss due to fluid loss as you use up stored liver glycogen and then you body gets rid of all the water that was stuck to the glycogen molecules. After a while there is some readjustment of fluid balance which is most likely what is happening now.
Assuming the number of calories you are eating per day has not changed over that 2 weeks, then you are almost certainly still losing fat, regardless of what the scales say. True plateaus from GLP drugs are usually about a year after starting not 9 weeks. And reduction in energy expenditure from weight loss is not a major issue at less than 10% change. You can try measuring waist circumference if you want to see evidence of weight loss but it is not super accurate as how tight the measuring tape is makes a few cm difference. But if calorie intake was causing weight loss and that has not changed, then the results will show on the scales eventually.
Whether you should increase doses at this point depends mainly on what side effects you are getting, and how much weight you want to lose. The more severe the obesity and the longer it has been an issue, the stronger the reasons for increasing doses towards 15mg, as well as if there are health problems from obesity, and overall cardiovascular risk. Do not have enough info to guess all I can see is start weight at 207lbs but no age or height or associated health issues.
I don't know how I never saw your response! Glad I did now though.
What you said makes sense and is affirming.

For more info, I am 5'7" and have an athletic but overweight build. My definition of overweight is pretty harsh towards myself though. In the 16 days since I posted this, I have lost more weight so I think you were spot on in what you said.
SW 207 CW 181 Height 5'7"
Starting waist circumference I'm not sure of but at least 36-38 inches. After I hit about 195 (when I was actively gaining) I had constant bloating issues that didn't resolve until about 10 days on tirz the bloat disappeared. Current waist is 32.5 inches. I have auto immune diseases that create extra chronic fatigue and I have faulty collagen. Anyways, in total I'm down 25 lbs in a bit over 11 weeks. I plan to stay at 7.5mg indefinitely since it's definitely effective.
My weight gain was quite rapid. I'd been in the low 180s until spring of last year and I started eating whatever made me feel good and steadily gained 25+ lbs in less than a year. But I haven't been a 'healthy weight' aka no extra fluff since before I had kids 12 years ago.
 
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You absolutely do need to eat a certain amount of calories to lose weight and to stay healthy.

Some key points from the article below (there are also many other articles and studies from credible sources that say the same things):

Extremely low-calorie diets trigger metabolic adaptation, forcing the body to slow its metabolism and conserve energy, which causes a weight-loss plateau. Additionally, this can lead to muscle loss, severe fatigue, increased cravings, and hormonal imbalances, making it harder to sustain long-term weight loss.~

I do not believe there is credible science to support the idea that a lower calorie deficit can cause more weight loss. There have been a lot of studies done over decades that included measurements of actual energy expenditure, and in general the numbers do always add up.
I think the main reason CICO can look like it is not making sense is not adequately accounting for alterations in energy expenditure secondary to weight loss, and people being terribly inaccurate at calorie counting. So it is possible to not lose weight on fairly low daily calorie intake in that post weight loss state ( that may last forever ) , but I have seen no evidence that increasing intake will cause weight loss in that state.

A severe calorie deficit causing very rapid weight loss can definitely cause problems. The most obvious ones being faintness, actual fainting, tiredness, exhaustion, electrolyte imbalances, and higher rates of gallstones. So losing weight super fast can have negative health consequences.

When weight is lost energy expenditure drops for 3 reasons , one is that the no longer there fat and lean tissue no longer consumes any calories, and this may be a large effect if a lot of weight is lost. The second reason is it takes less energy to move a body that weighs less, not sure how significant this is in reality, but logically it must happen . The third is reduced energy expenditure from the body's attempt to conserve energy and or fat stores. I believe that the metabolic adaptation to low calorie input is more dependent on time, and total weight lost , rather than how low the calorie intake is.

When I started at 145 kg , without GLP drugs at that point, I ate 1600-1800 kcal per day, was very inactive, and lost 6kg per month consistently until I got to about 90 kg so in about 9 months or so, weight loss then slowed slowly but surely to zero over the next several months with no change in calorie intake and stopped at 75 kg , where it stayed for a year or so, until I started taking ozempic, and it still stayed there for another year, all with the same calorie intake.

This enormous effect on energy expenditure did not require extreme calorie deficits, occurring at a calorie intake exactly the same as what was required to maintain the weight loss.

Maintaining weight loss is extremely difficult, the low energy expenditure combined with the increased hunger from massive weight loss, made me pretty hungry most of the time despite a diet designed to minimise hunger - very high protein 40-50% of calories, low calorific density , total avoidance of high calorific density / highly rewarding / high glycaemic index foods. This is the exact problem that makes long term weight loss nearly impossible, but it does not require extra low calorie intake to get there, just weight loss , and possibly time of low calorie input. Thankfully GLP drugs help with hunger so hopefully maintaining that weight loss will be possible
 
I don't know how I never saw your response! Glad I did now though.
What you said makes sense and is affirming.

For more info, I am 5'7" and have an athletic but overweight build. My definition of overweight is pretty harsh towards myself though. In the 16 days since I posted this, I have lost more weight so I think you were spot on in what you said.
SW 207 CW 181 Height 5'7"
Starting waist circumference I'm not sure of but at least 36-38 inches. After I hit about 195 (when I was actively gaining) I had constant bloating issues that didn't resolve until about 10 days on tirz the bloat disappeared. Current waist is 32.5 inches. I have auto immune diseases that create extra chronic fatigue and I have faulty collagen. Anyways, in total I'm down 25 lbs in a bit over 11 weeks. I plan to stay at 7.5mg indefinitely since it's definitely effective.
My weight gain was quite rapid. I'd been in the low 180s until spring of last year and I started eating whatever made me feel good and steadily gained 25+ lbs in less than a year. But I haven't been a 'healthy weight' aka no extra fluff since before I had kids 12 years ago.
Glad my ( hopefully educated ) guesses about what was going on were correct.
 
I would like to see some evidence that not eating enough stalls weight loss. Not some organization or a particular doctor's personal suggestions, an actual study that compares one group eating, say, 1200 calories a day and another group eating 700 calories a day that shows the 700 calorie group loses less weight once this theoretical "scarcity mode" activates. I think an extraordinary claim like that would need extraordinary evidence to back it up and I don't think I've ever seen any.
I appreciate your opinion on a lot of things and you are definitely a value to the community here, so I'm definitly not trying to slam you, but I think you are too focused on seeing for some kind of double blind control study (obviously the gold standard) that probably would not be ethical under the circumstances. Its the same thing for muscle loss. For instance, you are not going to test a 500 calorie deficit vs a 1500 calorie deficit to determine which group will lose more muscle becuse we have strong evidence already that the 1500 calorie deficit group would do worse. You would be knowingly harming the group that you were putting at the larger deficit. We have seen that people rapidly losing weight in GLPs have lost up to 40% of the weight from muscle. We know that people at smaller deficits don't lose that much muscle. The evidence is strong even if it is not measured in an independent study.

So i understand your frustration at not having gold standard research but I think that there is strong evidence that in general, bigger deficits are not better. You may have something that works well for you, but I don't think it would apply to most people.
 
Hey all. I'm relatively new to GLP1s. I've been on grey Tirz for 9 weeks. I just took my 2nd dose of 7.5mg yesterday. Started 9 weeks ago at 2.5mg. I lost 19lbs in the first 7 weeks, and my side effects were tolerable. Mainly burps and diarrhea as the worst of it. However,
I haven't lost weight or even changed weight in about 2 weeks. I thought once I got up to 7.5mg I'd really start seeing change. I've also noticed more hunger amd less satiety when eating the last two weeks.
The most likely culprit seems that when I bumped to 7.5 I also started a new vial of 60mg Tirz. I got them both from the same website, but my first vial was a 30mg vial. I'm wondering if the 60mg vial is less potent, or perhaps the first vial had more endotoxins which was giving me more bowel trouble? I've not had any stomach/burping/loose stool issues on this new vial.

I guess I'm wondering what you would do in my shoes. Bump up my dose or take a midweek dose to try to start something?
I was consistently loosing about 2.5lbs a week and now nothing for over 2 weeks. I haven't been eating poorly or excessively by anymeans. Still at a calorie deficit and I fast for mosy of the day. I have been rather slothful. Definitely struggling with energy which could be attributed to the weightloss from previous months.
Starting weifht 207, current weight 189.

I did just finish a BPC/TB stack cycle past week. Also a DSIP cycle.

Is this normal to not have changes or is it a bum vial?
I’d take about two days eating above maintainance to ensure you’re not experiencing metabolic adaptation!
 
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I appreciate your opinion on a lot of things and you are definitely a value to the community here, so I'm definitly not trying to slam you, but I think you are too focused on seeing for some kind of double blind control study (obviously the gold standard) that probably would not be ethical under the circumstances. Its the same thing for muscle loss. For instance, you are not going to test a 500 calorie deficit vs a 1500 calorie deficit to determine which group will lose more muscle becuse we have strong evidence already that the 1500 calorie deficit group would do worse. You would be knowingly harming the group that you were putting at the larger deficit. We have seen that people rapidly losing weight in GLPs have lost up to 40% of the weight from muscle. We know that people at smaller deficits don't lose that much muscle. The evidence is strong even if it is not measured in an independent study.

So i understand your frustration at not having gold standard research but I think that there is strong evidence that in general, bigger deficits are not better. You may have something that works well for you, but I don't think it would apply to most people.
Oh joy, this old thread and debate popped back up again. I am busy for the next few days but am planning to do a deep dive (well, medium maybe) into this topic and see what we can glean from the veeeery sparse research into this topic. The info would be helpful for me making my own diet decisions as well. Somebody remind me in a week lol.
 

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