Reconstituting agent for Cagrilintide

Question specifically about QSC's Cagri - is "plain" bac water enough or does it need any other things added when reconstituting.. not sure if it requires lowering of ph w/ "additives" or no?.. I thought I saw @Qingdao Sigma 's answer somewhere.. but can't find it now that I need that info...
 
Can syringe filters filter out fibrils (during injection) assuming they do form in cagri?
 
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From what I read that's to do with Ph levels (if it's even a thing) and not filters. Am I wrong?
The idea would be to filter out any already formed fibrils.

As for whether it would or not... Amyloid fibrils themselves (and presumably amyloid analog fibrils) are significantly smaller than 0.22μm, however, my understanding is they have a tendency to clump together, and these aggregate clumps can reach sizes that the filter would catch.

If you're going to use cagri, it might be prudent to make sure it's at a low PH and then filter after.
 
From what I read that's to do with Ph levels (if it's even a thing) and not filters. Am I wrong?
I am just wondering if filtering during injection might decrease the risk of fibrils entering the body (assuming fibrils form in cagri in the first place if pH of the solution is not optimal)
 
I am just wondering if filtering during injection might decrease the risk of fibrils entering the body (assuming fibrils form in cagri in the first place if pH of the solution is not optimal)
You don't need to worry about fibrils unless you plan to also hear up your Cagri and put it in a centrifuge
 
You don't need to worry about fibrils unless you plan to also hear up your Cagri and put it in a centrifuge
I am not really worried, I am just thinking it might be a good idea to filter during injection just in case. It doesn’t add that much more work and filters are pretty cheap.
 
You don't need to worry about fibrils unless you plan to also hear up your Cagri and put it in a centrifuge
I don't know that us random forumgoers have a solid enough grasp on the science to be making statements this strong.


I've re-read this multiple times since it was first linked here, and I'm less convinced than ever that it provides the evidence of safety that has been claimed. Analogue 23 was the final selection per the paper, and if we look at Table 5 and the ThT Assay, we do see fibril formation for 23 at 41 hours at a 7.5 pH and a significant difference in recovery % vs. the sample formulated at a 4.0 pH. Yes, the test was in a stressed situation, but how does that translate to the manufacturing process in China, whatever happens pre-lyophilization, or when sitting in the fridge for a month after being reconstituted? I don't know, and I don't think anyone on these forums really does, either.

Ultimately, the cagrilintide patent explicitly states that it must be formulated between 3.5 and 4.5 https://patents.google.com/patent/WO2021144476A1/en - this makes it significantly more difficult for NN. Why do they insist on this pH range if it's fine at higher pH?

IMO, the only responsible thing is to inform people of what information we do have and let them figure it out from their own risk tolerance. It might be perfectly safe! There's a lot of people taking it, so I certainly hope it is. But it also might not be.
 
I don't know that us random forumgoers have a solid enough grasp on the science to be making statements this strong.


I've re-read this multiple times since it was first linked here, and I'm less convinced than ever that it provides the evidence of safety that has been claimed. Analogue 23 was the final selection per the paper, and if we look at Table 5 and the ThT Assay, we do see fibril formation for 23 at 41 hours at a 7.5 pH and a significant difference in recovery % vs. the sample formulated at a 4.0 pH. Yes, the test was in a stressed situation, but how does that translate to the manufacturing process in China, whatever happens pre-lyophilization, or when sitting in the fridge for a month after being reconstituted? I don't know, and I don't think anyone on these forums really does, either.

Ultimately, the cagrilintide patent explicitly states that it must be formulated between 3.5 and 4.5 https://patents.google.com/patent/WO2021144476A1/en - this makes it significantly more difficult for NN. Why do they insist on this pH range if it's fine at higher pH?

IMO, the only responsible thing is to inform people of what information we do have and let them figure it out from their own risk tolerance. It might be perfectly safe! There's a lot of people taking it, so I certainly hope it is. But it also might not be.

Respectfully, I feel like you (and others) are conflating issues that have nothing to do with each other and creating heightened risks where they simply don't exist.

Whether or not Cagrilinitide is safe for long term use is completely separate from the issue of fibril formation. There may be 0 practical risk of fibril formation happening, but it could be proven unsafe for other reasons. In that regard we should treat it just like any other unapproved drug.

There is a huge difference between "pH you need to formulate a specific compound" and reconstitution pH. It is very normal that compounds only form at a certain pH, temperature, pressure, concentration, and are then perfectly stable after. Pretty much all of the inorganic substances we interact with on a daily basis operate this way.

It's possible that the Cagrilinitide we buy from grey sources experiences more "stress", but it doesn't matter if that stress isn't comparable to the stress needed for fibril formation - 41 hrs, 98°, in a centrifuge.
 
Respectfully, I feel like you (and others) are conflating issues that have nothing to do with each other and creating heightened risks where they simply don't exist.

Whether or not Cagrilinitide is safe for long term use is completely separate from the issue of fibril formation. There may be 0 practical risk of fibril formation happening, but it could be proven unsafe for other reasons. In that regard we should treat it just like any other unapproved drug.

There is a huge difference between "pH you need to formulate a specific compound" and reconstitution pH. It is very normal that compounds only form at a certain pH, temperature, pressure, concentration, and are then perfectly stable after. Pretty much all of the inorganic substances we interact with on a daily basis operate this way.

It's possible that the Cagrilinitide we buy from grey sources experiences more "stress", but it doesn't matter if that stress isn't comparable to the stress needed for fibril formation - 41 hrs, 98°, in a centrifuge.
No, it's not separate from the issue of fibril formation. But you are correct that even if fibril formation isn't an issue, it could still be unsafe for other reasons.

But we know that fibril formation is a health risk that NN considers important enough to have selected for formulations that minimize them.

The NN patent also specifies that Cagrilintide should be stored at that PH until injection time when it is mixed with Semaglutide in their patent. They mention that acetic acid is used to keep the pH stable post formulation, and that the concentration of buffer must keep it at 4.0 in the medical device. They're explicit all over the patent about it needing to be right around that pH all the way until delivery, even though it means having to store it separately in the device to the semaglutide. It does not seem like it's just a matter of needing to be at that pH only during the original formulation.

The centrifuge experiment is meant just to speed up the process - it's quite possible that 2 weeks sitting in a warehouse and then being transported by <truck/train/plane> before being lyophilized ultimately has the same result - and lyophilization won't do anything to the fibrils besides also turning them to powder, and then they'll reconstitute just like the peptide. It's like how they'll "age" whisky by putting the barrels on a boat - 6 months there produces similar results to sitting in a barrel house for a decade or so.

NN might be doing all of this out of an overabundance of caution and it's all fine regardless, but I'm a pretty firm believer that unless we really know that the fibrils are a nonissue that confidently telling people it's a nonissue is a mistake.

For example, this is all I would feel comfortable saying about the potential safety of cagri:

"We do not know what pH the original Cagrilintide raw material was formulated at and what the conditions were prior to lyophilization. Novo Nordisk believes that cagrilintide must be kept stable at around 3.5 - 4.5 pH, favoring 4.0, due to concerns around fibril formation. There are potential concerns around health risks from fibrils. We know that under relatively extreme conditions that cagrilintide at a 7.5 pH will form fibrils. We do not know how closely those conditions match the process for what we have available for purchase or how transferable that information is to other conditions. You can use acetic acid to get the pH for your cagrilintide down to 4 after the fact. You can use a filter to potentially remove any fibrils that have aggregated together, but singular fibrils that did not aggregate or ones that did not aggregate to larger than the filter's size will not be caught. There are of course also the general risks of unknown long-term side effects even unrelated to fibril formation. Choose whether these concern you enough to skip cagrilintide or not based on your own risk tolerance."
 
The centrifuge experiment is meant just to speed up the process - it's quite possible that 2 weeks sitting in a warehouse and then being transported by <truck/train/plane> before being lyophilized ultimately has the same result

That's not what the paper says at all:

"Propensity toward formation of fibrils upon exposure to mechanical stress was assessed"

"Mechanical stress was applied using a Fluoroskan Ascent FL fluorescence plate reader (Bie & Berntsen A/S, Roedovre, Denmark) at 37 °C incubation, 960 rpm, 1 mm amplitude"

The NN patent also specifies that Cagrilintide should be stored at that PH until injection time when it is mixed with Semaglutide in their patent. They mention that acetic acid is used to keep the pH stable post formulation, and that the concentration of buffer must keep it at 4.0 in the medical device. They're explicit all over the patent about it needing to be right around that pH all the way until delivery, even though it means having to store it separately in the device to the semaglutide. It does not seem like it's just a matter of needing to be at that pH only during the original formulation.

Here's how I read the paper that I think we're both discussing, but hasn't been explicitly quoted so far:

The first time pH is mentioned it is because attempting to formulate their first compound at a ph of 7 resulted in deamination - it wasn't stable enough.

"We found that formulation at pH 7 caused chemical instability including deamidation of asparagine residues, as reported for pramlintide, (17,18) and this could not be solved by formulations or minor pH adjustments. In order not to deviate too much from h-amylin, formulation at low pH seemed necessary."

It was much more stable at a pH of 4, but that did not stop fibril formation.

"Formulation at pH 4 was preferred for chemical stability based on published pramlintide data, as described above. (18) However, when 1 was taken into further preclinical development and high doses were given subcutaneously to rats, there were quite severe injection site reactions with signs of necrosis. A precipitate was observed at the injection site that appeared to have a fibrillar structure resembling classical h-amylin fibrils when studied with electron microscopy."

This appeared to be the result of fibril formation at higher a pH when solubility was low

"The hypothesis emerged that compound 1 in low doses binds to albumin at the injection site and is kept soluble by albumin despite low solubility at pH 7.4 in albumin-free aqueous solutions. At high doses, there might not be enough albumin at the injection site, and compound 1 precipitates and forms fibrils as pH rises."

They did not solve this by tinkering with the pH, they tossed this product (compound 1), and started looking for something that had better solubility and lower propensity to form fibrils in the pH range that offered the most stability.

"As fibrils of h-amylin are known to be cytotoxic, (31) the new design strategy therefore focused at identifying compounds with better solubility in the pH range 4.0–7.4 and with low tendency to form fibrils."

The explicit purpose of the centrifuge test was to evaluate tendency to form fibrils.

"Two assays were introduced to accommodate the selection. First, a simple solubility assay (Table 4) in the pH range from formulation pH (4.0) to physiological (7.4) was used... Second a fibrillation assay used in insulin research was introduced to filter out compounds with a high propensity to fibrillate (Table 5). It was based on Thioflavin T fluorescence of fibrils after exposure to mechanical stress over 2 days.

They created over 800 compounds while trying to get this right. Only four resisted fibril formation in the assay (mechanical centrifuge test) for more than 35 hours and showed significant potency.

"Among the more than 800 amylin-based peptides made..."

"Only nine compounds had a lag-time longer than 35 h, and of those, only four had attractive in vivo properties—high potency and long duration of action (8, 22, 23, and 24)."

They ultimately went with #23 because they expected it to perform better when in humans. Compound #23 is Cagrilinitide.


"In the final choice between 22 and 23 (differing at position 17; Figure 2), the species difference in vitro indicated that 23 might have the largest potency difference in favor of the human receptor compared to 22."
 
That's not what the paper says at all:

"Propensity toward formation of fibrils upon exposure to mechanical stress was assessed"

"Mechanical stress was applied using a Fluoroskan Ascent FL fluorescence plate reader (Bie & Berntsen A/S, Roedovre, Denmark) at 37 °C incubation, 960 rpm, 1 mm amplitude"
I'm not sure I understand what you think the purpose of the test was, then. Purely to see what happens if consumers happen to centrifuge it at high heat before they use it? It's obviously intended to be a proxy for accelerating the degradation that they believe can happen over time - only testing for 45h after creation would be useless for any sort of commercial use case - no one is taking it within that timeframe.


Here's how I read the paper that I think we're both discussing, but hasn't been explicitly quoted so far:

The first time pH is mentioned it is because attempting to formulate their first compound at a ph of 7 resulted in deamination - it wasn't stable enough.

"We found that formulation at pH 7 caused chemical instability including deamidation of asparagine residues, as reported for pramlintide, (17,18) and this could not be solved by formulations or minor pH adjustments. In order not to deviate too much from h-amylin, formulation at low pH seemed necessary."

It was much more stable at a pH of 4, but that did not stop fibril formation.

"Formulation at pH 4 was preferred for chemical stability based on published pramlintide data, as described above. (18) However, when 1 was taken into further preclinical development and high doses were given subcutaneously to rats, there were quite severe injection site reactions with signs of necrosis. A precipitate was observed at the injection site that appeared to have a fibrillar structure resembling classical h-amylin fibrils when studied with electron microscopy."

This appeared to be the result of fibril formation at higher a pH when solubility was low

"The hypothesis emerged that compound 1 in low doses binds to albumin at the injection site and is kept soluble by albumin despite low solubility at pH 7.4 in albumin-free aqueous solutions. At high doses, there might not be enough albumin at the injection site, and compound 1 precipitates and forms fibrils as pH rises."

They did not solve this by tinkering with the pH, they tossed this product (compound 1), and started looking for something that had better solubility and lower propensity to form fibrils in the pH range that offered the most stability.

"As fibrils of h-amylin are known to be cytotoxic, (31) the new design strategy therefore focused at identifying compounds with better solubility in the pH range 4.0–7.4 and with low tendency to form fibrils."

The explicit purpose of the centrifuge test was to evaluate tendency to form fibrils.

"Two assays were introduced to accommodate the selection. First, a simple solubility assay (Table 4) in the pH range from formulation pH (4.0) to physiological (7.4) was used... Second a fibrillation assay used in insulin research was introduced to filter out compounds with a high propensity to fibrillate (Table 5). It was based on Thioflavin T fluorescence of fibrils after exposure to mechanical stress over 2 days.

They created over 800 compounds while trying to get this right. Only four resisted fibril formation in the assay (mechanical centrifuge test) for more than 35 hours and showed significant potency.

"Among the more than 800 amylin-based peptides made..."

"Only nine compounds had a lag-time longer than 35 h, and of those, only four had attractive in vivo properties—high potency and long duration of action (8, 22, 23, and 24)."

They ultimately went with #23 because they expected it to perform better when in humans. Compound #23 is Cagrilinitide.


"In the final choice between 22 and 23 (differing at position 17; Figure 2), the species difference in vitro indicated that 23 might have the largest potency difference in favor of the human receptor compared to 22."
But if you look at Table 5, #23 was still found to create fibrils.

"The strategy here was to select compounds with as low propensity for amyloid fibril formation as possible, that is, significantly longer lag-time than 1 and preferable no amyloid fibril formation at all within the assay time frame of 45 h"

The lag time for 23 at a pH of 4.0 meets that 45 h bar, but it does not at the 7.5 pH and the recovery % also drops significantly compared to 4.0


The patent is even more interesting than the study, though. They found even at a pH of 4 that it was buffer dependent on if fibrils formed, via testing at ambient temperature and 100 end-over-end inversions of syringes per day. Look at the section starting around Table 2-1. This is a significantly less extreme test than the heated centrifuge, but we still got fibrils. Glutamate significantly outperformed the other buffering agents - even at 4.0 some of the buffering agents formed fibrils quite fast, particularly benzoate.

We have no idea what the pH or buffering agents are for these when purchased from China.


Again, I'm not saying that I know this stuff is dangerous - maybe they're using glutamate and keeping the pH at 4 and not throwing it around all over the place. If so, sweet! But, maybe they're not bothering to drop the pH to 4 and are instead keeping it closer to 7.5, and maybe they're using acetate for the buffering agent, and maybe it's getting tossed around all over the place after formulation. We just don't know! And that's why I'd advocate against saying fibrils are a nonissue, because I don't think we have the information available to us to be confident in that.
 
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Having read the patent, there is absolutely no way NN would design a whole new pen with TWO different chambers of differing pH in it if they thought CagriSema could co-exist in the same pH.

Now the question remains, is this because long term storage of liquid peptide solution in sub-optimal pH harms the peptide, or even short term storage does the same.

If it's only long term storage, we don't need to be concerned, no one here keeps it longer than 6 months anyway, and even that is a serious stretch.

However if even short term storage is a problem, well it spooks me enough to not try this peptide in pH 7 until we have better evidence.
 
Having read the patent, there is absolutely no way NN would design a whole new pen with TWO different chambers of differing pH in it if they thought CagriSema could co-exist in the same pH.

Now the question remains, is this because long term storage of liquid peptide solution in sub-optimal pH harms the peptide, or even short term storage does the same.

If it's only long term storage, we don't need to be concerned, no one here keeps it longer than 6 months anyway, and even that is a serious stretch.

However if even short term storage is a problem, well it spooks me enough to not try this peptide in pH 7 until we have better evidence.
Since BAC water will raise the PH, could you reconstitute a sacrificial vial with sterile water and check if the PH is in the four range as a test of the manufacturer's process. If you are hellbent on researching this peptide would it also make sense to buy the smallest mg vials and reconstitute new vials as often as possible?
 

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