Tesa & Ipa!

[Calm Logic]

So far, your two results for IGF-1 both seem very educational/surprising.

 

[Such1943]

So far, your two results for IGF-1 both seem very educational/surprising.

I'm really looking forward to my next blood work. I'm pushing up to some moderate doses of some compounds. They are either going to be trash and I pull back or continue till June and cruse TRT for another lean bulk in Dec. So far the results have been amazing for recomp.

For peptides I'm just going to stick to Reta and KLOW for now. Although I really liked the SS-31/NAD+/Most-c combo, I'll probably do it again in my cruse. I am already feeling like a pin cushion pinning daily.

But for real, test 160mg/week, Reta 8mg/week and 2ui HGH daily had me feeling great before I started messing around with other shit. Still feel great but cannot point to what is doing what anymore.

 

[sfkid]

Individual response to HGH varies pretty wildly, and estrogen levels can impact it (more estrogen, more response, to a certain point)

4IU is enough to put me right above 500 IGF-1, which is more than you would need for fat loss/recomp type purposes, but 3-4 IU are pretty common amounts for people to settle on. Start a little low, titrate up after a couple of weeks. People tend to get swelling, edema, carpal tunnel, etc., if they go too high too fast.

I'm happy I respond well to HGH, since I respond like jack shit to testosterone itself. All the way up to 250mg/w now and still in reference range, lol.

One thing to keep in mind with both tesa/ip and regular HGH is that you will put on some additional water weight when you start, and potentially again as you go up in dosage, so the scale might move up instead of down as your body gets used to it.

Do you cycle or just daily on going?

 

[Calm Logic]

For preventing carpal tunnel and fluid retention, some on Meso mention taurine:

5-10g taurine per day keeps the HGH sides away.

I used to get crippling carpal tunnel. Taurine cured it to the point that if all my HGH wasn't from the same batch I would think it's fake. Zero carpal tunnel issues

I already use up to 6 grams a day of taurine powder (divided into two doses, with creatine powder in the same drink). I also take Jardiance daily, which has a strong diuretic effect compared to dandelion.

Recommended Protocol for HGH Edema

If you are moving forward with HGH, the "Gold Standard" supplement stack to prevent the "puffy face" or "carpal tunnel" feeling often looks like this:

Taurine: 2–3 grams daily (split into two doses).

Potassium: Ensure high dietary intake (aim for 4,700 mg/day) to counter HGH-induced sodium retention.

Hydration: Paradoxically, drinking more water tells your body it doesn't need to hold onto its current supply

Strategy / Supplement	Effectiveness	Mechanism for HGH/Peptides
Taurine (2-3g)	High	Natural osmolyte; pulls water into muscle cells and out of the skin.
Dose Tapering	High	Allows kidneys to adapt to sodium-retention signals slowly.
Potassium (Dietary)	High	Acts as a "sodium antagonist" to flush excess fluid.
Dandelion Root	Moderate	Mild natural diuretic for cosmetic water weight.
Vitamin B6 (P-5-P)	Moderate	Helps regulate fluid balance and potential prolactin shifts.
ALA (R-ALA)	Low/Indirect	Prevents "insulin-driven" sodium retention by improving sensitivity.

 

[Such1943]

Do you cycle or just daily on going?

I take it every night.

Also what Hex said about taking too much to fast can cause issues is what I experienced. When I did 2ui morning before fasted cardio and a 2ui at night right off the bat. I was exhausted during the day like a muscle relaxer hang over and had carpel tunnel at night. I backed it down to .5 ui at night and slowly went up from there.

 

[sfkid]

I take it every night.

Also what Hex said about taking too much to fast can cause issues is what I experienced. When I did 2ui morning before fasted cardio and a 2ui at night right off the bat. I was exhausted during the day like a muscle relaxer hang over and had carpel tunnel at night. I backed it down to .5 ui at night and slowly went up from there.

Is the plan to stay on it forever ? Just trying to figure out what long term plan is.

 

[Such1943]

Is the plan to stay on it forever ? Just trying to figure out what long term plan is.

Planning on Reta/Test/HGH for the foreseeable future. Those 3 out everything I've done so far has had the most positive effect. Wish I started years ago, feel 10 year younger. Fixing my hormones have been an 180 in life. I thought that being fat, lazy, lethargic, unmotivated, mild depression was just apart of aging past 40. That all changed 3 weeks into TRT.

 

[sfkid]

Planning on Reta/Test/HGH for the foreseeable future. Those 3 out everything I've done so far has had the most positive effect. Wish I started years ago, feel 10 year younger. Fixing my hormones have been an 180 in life. I thought that being fat, lazy, lethargic, unmotivated, mild depression was just apart of aging past 40. That all changed 3 weeks into TRT.

+1000%... Big pharma wants everyone weak and frail. With all the advancements in research and ease of accessibility almost anyone can live an enhanced life instead of just getting by.
Thanks for the replies.

 

[Calm Logic]

You need to get your IGF-1 tested. You want to be within Z score of 2-3. IGF-1 z score above 3 long term causes acromegaly and you start looking like Sylvester Stallone.

My current, natural baseline (for almost-49-year-old male):



A Z-score of zero is being exactly at the median (50th percentile):

Z-Score	Percentile	Classification	Age 35 (ng/mL)	Age 50 (ng/mL)
+3.0	99.9%	Pathological High (Acromegaly)	380+	300+
+2.0	97.7%	High Normal (Lab Ceiling)	315	250
+1.0	84.1%	Above Average (Performance)	250	195
0.0	50.0%	Median (Dead Average)	185	145
-1.0	15.9%	Below Average (Longevity)	120	95
-2.0	2.3%	Low Normal (Lab Floor)	70	50
-3.0	0.1%	Pathological Low (Deficiency)	< 50	< 40

Age	-3.0 Z	-2.0 Z	-1.0 Z	0.0 Z (Median)	+1.0 Z	+2.0 Z	+3.0 Z
20	130	180	230	280	360	490	620+
30	85	115	155	200	260	340	440+
40	60	85	125	170	220	280	360+
50	40	65	105	145	190	250	320+
60	35	55	90	125	165	215	280+
70	30	50	80	110	145	195	240+
80	25	45	70	95	125	165	210+

IGF-1 values for a Z-score of 2.0:

Age Range	Median (Z=0)	Ceiling (+2.0 Z)	Physiological Context
18–20	280	500 – 550	Peak hormonal output; maximum tissue turnover.
21–25	220	350 – 440	Post-puberty stabilization phase.
26–30	200	310 – 370	Early adult baseline.
31–35	185	290 – 330	Standard adult maintenance peak.
36–40	170	275 – 290	Gradual biological decline begins.
41–45	155	260 – 275	"High normal" ceiling continues to descend.
46–50	145	245 – 260	Typical mid-life threshold for growth signaling.
51–55	135	230 – 245	Post-50 slide; decline becomes more pronounced.
56–60	125	220 – 235	Continued reduction in natural production.
61–65	115	210 – 220	Shift toward tissue maintenance over growth.
66–70	110	200 – 210	Lower ceiling to balance cancer surveillance.
71–75	105	190 – 205	Late-stage hormonal conservation.
76–80	100	180 – 200	Reduced metabolic activity.
80+	90	160 – 180	Risk management shifts toward frailty prevention.

Why the "Average" 18-Year-Old Level is Dangerous for a 50-Year-Old:

The "Fertilizer" Effect: By age 50, most men have accumulated microscopic "senescent" or pre-cancerous cells. While 280 ng/mL of IGF-1 helps an 18-year-old grow taller, in a 50-year-old, it can act as fuel for existing mutations.

Metabolic Stress: Growth hormone naturally opposes insulin. An 18-year-old has high insulin sensitivity and can handle the "push." At 50, this level of growth signaling often leads to Insulin Resistance and elevated fasting glucose.

Organomegaly: At 18, the heart is still optimizing for size and strength. At 50, pushing growth signaling this high can lead to pathological thickening of the heart wall (Left Ventricular Hypertrophy) or enlargement of the kidneys and liver.

Summary for Tracking Risk:

Duration	Primary Risk at +2.0 Z	Monitoring Marker
1-3 Months	Water retention / Edema	Blood Pressure / Weight
6-12 Months	Increased GFR (Kidney Stress)	Cystatin-C / Creatinine
1-3 Years	Structural thickening / Heart remodeling	Echocardiogram / Ultrasound
5+ Years	Organomegaly / Reduced organ function	Full Organ Imaging

Category	Lab Marker	Impact of +2.0 Z-Score	The "Benefit"	The "Risk"
Metabolic	Fasting Insulin	Elevation	Muscle glucose disposal synergy.	Direct GH-mediated insulin resistance.
Metabolic	HbA1c	Neutral / Stable	Muscle acts as a "glucose sink."	Gradual long-term glycemic "creep."
Organ Stress	Cystatin-C	Elevation	Reflects high metabolic turnover.	Renal Hyperfiltration / Thickening.
Organ Stress	NT-proBNP	Potential Elevation	Supports high cardiac output.	Cardiac "stretch" or Wall Thickening.
Organ Stress	ALT / GGT	Neutral / Slight Inc.	Efficient tissue regeneration.	Hepatocyte over-proliferation stress.
Cardio	ApoB	Variable / Neutral	Increased LDL-receptor clearance.	VLDL overproduction via Insulin Risk.
Cardio	hs-CRP	Decrease	Endothelial repair & Nitric Oxide.	Oxidative stress-induced inflammation.
Cardio	Oxidized LDL	Elevation	Endothelial protection via E2.	Increased lipid damage (Free Radicals).
Hormonal	IGF-1 & BP3	High-Normal Target	Maximized tissue/bone/brain repair.	Crossing into +3.0 oncogenic signaling.
Hormonal	PSA	Potential Elevation	Healthy tissue signaling.	Prostate tissue proliferation (BPH).
Hormonal	Estradiol (Sens.)	Synergistic	Cardioprotection & Bone health.	Benign growth in sensitive tissues.

 

[Calm Logic]

Fat loss regarding Z-score:

Z-Score Range	Metabolic State	Tesamorelin Impact	Ipa + Tesa Combo	HGH Impact	Total Fat Loss Potency
+1.0 to +2.0	OPTIMAL FAT LOSS	Visceral Selective: Elite for deep belly/liver fat (ALT benefit).	Synergistic Pulse: Strongest natural GH spike; low edema.	Systemic Lipolysis: Hits fat layers across the entire body.	Maximum: HGH leads on total weight; Tesa leads on waist reduction.
0.0 to +1.0	Maintenance	Preserves lean mass; steady but slow VAT reduction.	Recovery Focus: Enhanced sleep and tissue repair.	Supports recovery; minimal active fat loss.	Moderate: Best for steady body recomposition.
> +2.0	Supraphysiological	Pituitary "saturation" point; diminishing returns.	Unlikely to exceed +2.0 without exogenous help.	Insulin Resistance: High risk of blunting receptors/A1C.	Variable: Fat loss often hidden by high water retention (edema).

Related supplements/meds for being on GH and/or TRT:

GH Rank	TRT Rank	Combo Rank	Compound	Clinical Synergy / Protocol Focus
1	12	1	Retatrutide	Metabolic Master: Physically deletes GH-induced insulin resistance.
5	1	2	Tadalafil (5mg)	Arterial Health: Directly reverses vascular stiffness from IGF-1/TRT.
2	11	3	Statin	ApoB Master: Essential for clearing mobilized fats from peptides.
7	2	4	Telmisartan	Organ Shield: Superior BP/Kidney protection; PPAR-γ support.
3	13	5	Jardiance	Glucose Dump: Renal sugar removal; synergistic with Reta.
6	3	6	Magnesium	Mineral Anchor: Prevents Reta-induced heart rate (RHR) spikes.
9	4	7	Ubiquinol	Lipid Armor: Non-negotiable if using a Statin or GH-peptides.
10	5	8	Taurine	Universal Buffer: Manages HCT viscosity and renal osmotic stress.
4	14	9	Berberine	Insulin Guard: Acts on liver/gut to maintain sensitivity.
8	9	10	TUDCA	Cellular Quality: ER stress relief for high protein synthesis phases.
13	6	11	Nattokinase	Viscosity Guard: Mandatory for managing "thick blood" on TRT.
11	10	12	L-Citrulline	NO Synergy: Works with Tadalafil for maximum vascular flexibility.
14	7	13	Omega-3s	Vascular Health: Supports membrane fluidity and anti-inflammation.
12	8	14	Vit K2 (MK-7)	Calcium Traffic: Prevents arterial calcification (CAC).

Risk Level	Interaction Combo	Physiological Impact	The Mandatory Shield Strategy
CRITICAL	Statin + Ubiquinol	Statins deplete CoQ10 armor; increases Ox-LDL risk during fat loss.	Ubiquinol (200mg+) to protect mobilized visceral fats.
CRITICAL	Telmisartan + Jardiance	Dual-pressure on kidneys; can lead to "false" high Creatinine.	Taurine (3g+) & Hyper-Hydration (3L+ Water).
HIGH	TRT + Jardiance + Reta	"Thick Blood" Syndrome (High RBC count + Low Plasma Volume).	Nattokinase & Taurine to maintain blood pliability.
MODERATE	Tadalafil + Telmi + Jard	Quadruple BP crash and Orthostatic Hypotension (dizziness).	Stagger Dosing (Tad/Jard AM; Telmi/Statin PM).
MONITOR	Reta + Jard + Mag	Excessive renal flushing of Magnesium and Potassium.	High-Dose Magnesium to protect the heart's pacemaker.

 

[happybunny63]

So I can order a few IGF-1 tests by signing up for a monthly membership and then cancelling the membership even before the dates of my Labcorp appointments are completed? ... Also, how far out in advance can I book an appointment?