Trying to parse all the data on HGH, TRT and secretagogues

[fatjacked]

As the title says, I have been reading up quite a bit on the different options. A little background - I am a male, early 40's, done having kids. Approaching my goal weight with tirz and thinking about different options for recomp / maintenance and general health going forward. I lift heavy 3-4 times per week, play basketball and jog for cardio, doing reasonably well with my fitness and health goals. Have a history of high cholesterol but currently well controlled on a low dose statin. I have an appointment in a few weeks with a new PCP and will be requesting some labs etc.

Last set of labs was in October and looked like this:

Test - 229
Free Test - 5.3
FSH - 4.1
LH - 3.4
IGF-1 178 (Z score not provided, but from what I can tell this puts me very close to mean for my age)

My former doc (who is not shy about the benefits of TRT and says he is on it himself) told me I could obviously consider treatment, but did not want to rush into it given my age and relative lack of symptoms, and thought my levels might bounce back a bit with weight loss etc. This was all right before I started tirz. I do sometimes feel like I am getting more brain fog / difficulty focusing, but libido, sleep, etc. are all fine as of now.

Goal-wise, I am not looking to add a ton of muscle. Would like to lean out, focus on recovery / prevent orthopedic and joint problems, and not do anything terribly risky in terms of longevity or cancer.

So my questions are - assuming my test is still below 300 in the next round of labs:

1. If you were going to start just one treatment (TRT, HGH or GHRH/secretagogue) first, which would it be and why?
2. For someone with my goals (more focused on gradual recomp / recovery / getting lean than adding bulk) is the risk of HGH worth running it over something like CJC/IPA? I do not plan to get on gear at any point, the options listed above are pretty much the menu for me in one combo or another. I also wonder if just starting test on its own will do as much or more for me, given I am already active and don't have major complaints.
3. For someone concerned about the risks of long-term / higher dose HGH, is there benefit to running low dose / short cycles just for recomp / fat loss? Something like 1-2 iu for 4-6 weeks once or twice a year?

Would appreciate any other comments on how to think through the TRT/HGH/GHRH axis of options generally as well.

 

[CNCCurrency]

3. For someone concerned about the risks of long-term / higher dose HGH, is there benefit to running low dose / short cycles just for recomp / fat loss? Something like 1-2 iu for 4-6 weeks once or twice a year?

Don't think in this short of time the results will be evident.

 

[CNCCurrency]

As the title says, I have been reading up quite a bit on the different options. A little background - I am a male, early 40's, done having kids. Approaching my goal weight with tirz and thinking about different options for recomp / maintenance and general health going forward. I lift heavy 3-4 times per week, play basketball and jog for cardio, doing reasonably well with my fitness and health goals. Have a history of high cholesterol but currently well controlled on a low dose statin. I have an appointment in a few weeks with a new PCP and will be requesting some labs etc.

Last set of labs was in October and looked like this:

Test - 229
Free Test - 5.3
FSH - 4.1
LH - 3.4
IGF-1 178 (Z score not provided, but from what I can tell this puts me very close to mean for my age)

My former doc (who is not shy about the benefits of TRT and says he is on it himself) told me I could obviously consider treatment, but did not want to rush into it given my age and relative lack of symptoms, and thought my levels might bounce back a bit with weight loss etc. This was all right before I started tirz. I do sometimes feel like I am getting more brain fog / difficulty focusing, but libido, sleep, etc. are all fine as of now.

Goal-wise, I am not looking to add a ton of muscle. Would like to lean out, focus on recovery / prevent orthopedic and joint problems, and not do anything terribly risky in terms of longevity or cancer.

So my questions are - assuming my test is still below 300 in the next round of labs:

1. If you were going to start just one treatment (TRT, HGH or GHRH/secretagogue) first, which would it be and why?
2. For someone with my goals (more focused on gradual recomp / recovery / getting lean than adding bulk) is the risk of HGH worth running it over something like CJC/IPA? I do not plan to get on gear at any point, the options listed above are pretty much the menu for me in one combo or another. I also wonder if just starting test on its own will do as much or more for me, given I am already active and don't have major complaints.
3. For someone concerned about the risks of long-term / higher dose HGH, is there benefit to running low dose / short cycles just for recomp / fat loss? Something like 1-2 iu for 4-6 weeks once or twice a year?

Would appreciate any other comments on how to think through the TRT/HGH/GHRH axis of options generally as well.

Scroll down near the bottom and look at the projections/what to expect section

https://pep-pedia.org/peptides/hgh

 

[Cannonball72]

honest couple of thoughts.

You need to put on way more muscle than you think you want. Especially if your talking that you are naturally nearly hypogonadal and are considering test/hgh/secretogogues.

Since you’re producing low, consider Enclomophene mono therapy. Next step is test injections, the gold standard for a reason. Lowest effective dose. Two viable TRT interventions, frequently run together.

Test injections will help with any mood/emotion stuff that comes with low test, but on its own, not gonna a fix physique. I’m on test .36mg eod, enclomphene 25mg1x/wk, HCG 150iu 1x wk. no need for AIs, no skin problems, no hair loss. High test and free test numbers.

Re: HGH and/or secretegogues. They all work. The caveat, and back to the first paragraph, they are not magic. You need to do the work. These interventions work best when you are committed to a nutrition and fitness program. Otherwise, garbage in, garbage out.

At your age, secretogogues should be fine. HGH up to 4iu, 2-3IU generally ok for long runs. Get your blood work done and make your decision based on how much assistance you want. Do you want to max out your natural system or determine the specific level you want to carry. Secretegogues for the former, HGH for the latter. I’m 53 running tesa/ipa 6:1 blend 5/2, very happy with this.

Reta/Tirz and etc. are more like miracle peptides. Less dependent on the individual doing the work, but the outcome is still greatly influenced by a shift to quality nutrition and fitness.

All that said. Your actual question, TRT is the absolute foundation. Start here. Don’t rush into the rest, the time will come. But do TRT first and see how you respond. Once you’re settled, consider the next intervention.

I apologize if I misinterpreted anything. I don’t intend to come across as a know it all. But I’ve been through it and found what really works for me, and if you read the stories of people on this site, you would see a very common pattern to what I shared.

Make sure you get regular blood work.

 

[Turbo-Farmer]

As the title says, I have been reading up quite a bit on the different options. A little background - I am a male, early 40's, done having kids. Approaching my goal weight with tirz and thinking about different options for recomp / maintenance and general health going forward. I lift heavy 3-4 times per week, play basketball and jog for cardio, doing reasonably well with my fitness and health goals. Have a history of high cholesterol but currently well controlled on a low dose statin. I have an appointment in a few weeks with a new PCP and will be requesting some labs etc.

Last set of labs was in October and looked like this:

Test - 229
Free Test - 5.3
FSH - 4.1
LH - 3.4
IGF-1 178 (Z score not provided, but from what I can tell this puts me very close to mean for my age)

Enclomiphime, or HCG first

With your FHS that low, your ledig cells are not getting the signal to ramp up production.

Zinc, if you're low in zinc your body can't make T

You said Tirz, when.you’re losing weight to quickly you go into starvation mode and you FSH signaling will be muted until you get back to a calorie surplus.

 

[alphaskunk65]

As the title says, I have been reading up quite a bit on the different options. A little background - I am a male, early 40's, done having kids. Approaching my goal weight with tirz and thinking about different options for recomp / maintenance and general health going forward. I lift heavy 3-4 times per week, play basketball and jog for cardio, doing reasonably well with my fitness and health goals. Have a history of high cholesterol but currently well controlled on a low dose statin. I have an appointment in a few weeks with a new PCP and will be requesting some labs etc.

Last set of labs was in October and looked like this:

Test - 229
Free Test - 5.3
FSH - 4.1
LH - 3.4
IGF-1 178 (Z score not provided, but from what I can tell this puts me very close to mean for my age)

My former doc (who is not shy about the benefits of TRT and says he is on it himself) told me I could obviously consider treatment, but did not want to rush into it given my age and relative lack of symptoms, and thought my levels might bounce back a bit with weight loss etc. This was all right before I started tirz. I do sometimes feel like I am getting more brain fog / difficulty focusing, but libido, sleep, etc. are all fine as of now.

Goal-wise, I am not looking to add a ton of muscle. Would like to lean out, focus on recovery / prevent orthopedic and joint problems, and not do anything terribly risky in terms of longevity or cancer.

So my questions are - assuming my test is still below 300 in the next round of labs:

1. If you were going to start just one treatment (TRT, HGH or GHRH/secretagogue) first, which would it be and why?
2. For someone with my goals (more focused on gradual recomp / recovery / getting lean than adding bulk) is the risk of HGH worth running it over something like CJC/IPA? I do not plan to get on gear at any point, the options listed above are pretty much the menu for me in one combo or another. I also wonder if just starting test on its own will do as much or more for me, given I am already active and don't have major complaints.
3. For someone concerned about the risks of long-term / higher dose HGH, is there benefit to running low dose / short cycles just for recomp / fat loss? Something like 1-2 iu for 4-6 weeks once or twice a year?

Would appreciate any other comments on how to think through the TRT/HGH/GHRH axis of options generally as well.

I started with TRT added Reta. Once my peps arrive I'm going to stack HGH secretagogues not somatropin . Klow on top of that for healing. Experienced people I refer too claim you can stack anything on Test. In correct amounts of course. That's just me.

 

[fatjacked]

Enclomiphime, or HCG first

With your FHS that low, your ledig cells are not getting the signal to ramp up production.

Zinc, if you're low in zinc your body can't make T

You said Tirz, when.you’re losing weight to quickly you go into starvation mode and you FSH signaling will be muted until you get back to a calorie surplus.

The numbers I posted are from before I started tirz, was in a surplus for sure at that point but was also much fatter. My understanding is both obesity and starvation can suppress FSH, not sure which is worse on that front.

I've been focused on preserving as much muscle as possible on tirz and kept the weight loss fairly gradual. Will find out in a few weeks how those levels changed as a result I guess.

 

[fatjacked]

You need to put on way more muscle than you think you want. Especially if your talking that you are naturally nearly hypogonadal and are considering test/hgh/secretogogues.

Since you’re producing low, consider Enclomophene mono therapy. Next step is test injections, the gold standard for a reason. Lowest effective dose. Two viable TRT interventions, frequently run together.

Test injections will help with any mood/emotion stuff that comes with low test, but on its own, not gonna a fix physique. I’m on test .36mg eod, enclomphene 25mg1x/wk, HCG 150iu 1x wk. no need for AIs, no skin problems, no hair loss. High test and free test numbers.

Re: HGH and/or secretegogues. They all work. The caveat, and back to the first paragraph, they are not magic. You need to do the work. These interventions work best when you are committed to a nutrition and fitness program. Otherwise, garbage in, garbage out.

Not sure why you keep implying that I'm not doing the work or don't want to. Thought I was pretty clear in my post - I have a really solid gym routine, I am very strong compared to general population, I was just also fat. Now that I'm bordering-on-not-fat and thinking about what maintenance looks like, I am looking into the options.

From what I have read regarding enclo vs. TRT, it sounds to me like there is a lot less long term safety data for enclo, it works but not as well, and I will be limited to gray market and self management, vs. hopefully getting TRT covered by my insurance. I also don't care about fertility anymore.

 

[Turbo-Farmer]

The numbers I posted are from before I started tirz, was in a surplus for sure at that point but was also much fatter. My understanding is both obesity and starvation can suppress FSH, not sure which is worse on that front.

I've been focused on preserving as much muscle as possible on tirz and kept the weight loss fairly gradual. Will find out in a few weeks how those levels changed as a result I guess.

both affect your hormone production.

Enclomiphene or Hgc would raise your FHS and you would be able to measure what you could produce on your own.

Raising your T would also raise your IGF,

Optimize your T before first

 

[Turbo-Farmer]

Test injections will help with any mood/emotion stuff that comes with low test, but on its own, not gonna a fix physique. I’m on test .36mg eod, enclomphene 25mg1x/wk, HCG 150iu 1x wk. no need for AIs, no skin problems, no hair loss.

0.36mg is almost nothing

Did you mean 0.36 ml every other day?

 

[fatjacked]

both affect your hormone production.

Enclomiphene or Hgc would raise your FHS and you would be able to measure what you could produce on your own.

Raising your T would also raise your IGF,

Optimize your T before first

But IF I got to an acceptable level on enclo alone, I would still need to continue enclo indefinitely to maintain that production, right?

 

[Turbo-Farmer]

But IF I got to an acceptable level on enclo alone, I would still need to continue enclo indefinitely to maintain that production, right?

Not necessarily, if you are at a health weight and not losing weight then your own signaling wouldn’t be inhibitied as much

Resistance training, proper nutrition, enough sleep etc.

 

[lessthanhalf]

A lot of the answers above are from a bodybuilding perspective, and given you say you do not want to put on a lot of muscle, that might not be the correct way of looking at it for you. Cardiorespiratory fitness is strongly correlated to health and illness prevention, muscle mass is important but the effects are not quite as clear cut as fitness overall.

You can achieve large increases in muscle mass with high doses of testosterone or any of the anabolic androgenic steroids and or hgh, but those high doses come with health risks, and I am not sure that getting less healthy , but more ripped, is what you are aiming for.

The effects of low or replacement dose trt or hgh are not huge, you may find that with reduced body fat test recovers to higher levels, the standard advice in Australia is to manage it by weight loss rather than replacement, not that I entirely agree with that approach, but it may not be needed once you get levels checked after weight loss. But from what I read the combo of trt and hgh at physiological levels, so not high doses, are worth about 5% less fat and 5% more muscle, and overall about weight neutral. This was in older males and you are a bit younger so might get a bit better results but it is not going to make a huge difference.

Overall replacement level dose TRT is thought to be health neutral or have benefits, but is not without any side effects and is often prescribed by doctors , but with many different sets of opinions on it. HGH is not really ever prescribed by doctors for what you want to achieve, generally the risks are thought to outweigh the benefits . I am on 1.5 iu hgh/2 days and doctor prescribed TRT, but I am also trying to maintain a 55% weight loss and my logic is even that extra 5% might help. Though my IGF-1 level was through the roof at 1.5iu/day, and will have to get it rechecked on half that dose.

In general the standard Meso approach is always more and more lifting first, and they are not wrong , exercise and what and how much is going to have a much larger effect than any add on chemicals.

 

[BlueDog55]

Not sure why you keep implying that I'm not doing the work or don't want to. Thought I was pretty clear in my post - I have a really solid gym routine, I am very strong compared to general population, I was just also fat. Now that I'm bordering-on-not-fat and thinking about what maintenance looks like, I am looking into the options.

From what I have read regarding enclo vs. TRT, it sounds to me like there is a lot less long term safety data for enclo, it works but not as well, and I will be limited to gray market and self management, vs. hopefully getting TRT covered by my insurance. I also don't care about fertility anymore.

"enclo vs. TRT, it sounds to me like there is a lot less long term safety data" There is no risk to proper TRT some people need an estrogen blockers and some people have to donate blood.

 

[fatjacked]

A lot of the answers above are from a bodybuilding perspective, and given you say you do not want to put on a lot of muscle, that might not be the correct way of looking at it for you. Cardiorespiratory fitness is strongly correlated to health and illness prevention, muscle mass is important but the effects are not quite as clear cut as fitness overall.

Thank you. Yes, I agree, it seems like most of the answers about this issue come from a bodybuilding perspective, not just here but basically anywhere if you are looking for answers beyond the conservative mainstream standard of treatment.

Are you saying you added HGH on top of test basically for that marginal benefit of +/- 5% fat and muscle? Because honestly that would be a slam dunk result for me. What made you choose HGH over secretagogues?

 

[Gt3294a]

As the title says, I have been reading up quite a bit on the different options. A little background - I am a male, early 40's, done having kids. Approaching my goal weight with tirz and thinking about different options for recomp / maintenance and general health going forward. I lift heavy 3-4 times per week, play basketball and jog for cardio, doing reasonably well with my fitness and health goals. Have a history of high cholesterol but currently well controlled on a low dose statin. I have an appointment in a few weeks with a new PCP and will be requesting some labs etc.

Last set of labs was in October and looked like this:

Test - 229
Free Test - 5.3
FSH - 4.1
LH - 3.4
IGF-1 178 (Z score not provided, but from what I can tell this puts me very close to mean for my age)

My former doc (who is not shy about the benefits of TRT and says he is on it himself) told me I could obviously consider treatment, but did not want to rush into it given my age and relative lack of symptoms, and thought my levels might bounce back a bit with weight loss etc. This was all right before I started tirz. I do sometimes feel like I am getting more brain fog / difficulty focusing, but libido, sleep, etc. are all fine as of now.

Goal-wise, I am not looking to add a ton of muscle. Would like to lean out, focus on recovery / prevent orthopedic and joint problems, and not do anything terribly risky in terms of longevity or cancer.

So my questions are - assuming my test is still below 300 in the next round of labs:

1. If you were going to start just one treatment (TRT, HGH or GHRH/secretagogue) first, which would it be and why?
2. For someone with my goals (more focused on gradual recomp / recovery / getting lean than adding bulk) is the risk of HGH worth running it over something like CJC/IPA? I do not plan to get on gear at any point, the options listed above are pretty much the menu for me in one combo or another. I also wonder if just starting test on its own will do as much or more for me, given I am already active and don't have major complaints.
3. For someone concerned about the risks of long-term / higher dose HGH, is there benefit to running low dose / short cycles just for recomp / fat loss? Something like 1-2 iu for 4-6 weeks once or twice a year?

Would appreciate any other comments on how to think through the TRT/HGH/GHRH axis of options generally as well.

What’s your bfp? Not knowing that, which could possibly change things if you said 10 percent and you have been stuck there, increasing your test (say times 2-3) will dramatically outweigh increasing your Igf to say 300 (which seems the most you would want to raise it, from your posts), in my humble opinion. Given your risk profile, I would save the HGH (or tesa etc) for when Igf likely drops more around 50 years old, and you are stuck trying to cut a bit. My 2 cents anyway.

 

[lessthanhalf]

There is a surprising lack of studies on hgh , in terms of effects on muscle mass or obesity or quality of life, a few more on trt, but one study in older males showed that using both hgh and testosterone at reasonable doses made about a 5% difference, which is not nothing, but is not huge either. Individually the effect is closer to 2%.

Reason for hgh over tesamorelin is price, it is cheaper. The problem with hgh or secretagogues is that animals with IGF-1 deficiency live longer, and this has been repeated many times. So it is possible that they reduce lifespan. There are no long term studies in humans for obesity or anything similar as it is really only ever given to people with no hgh due to brain injuries or children with short stature. I figure I am at unusually very high risk of cardiovascular disease with 10 year risks of 25+% of serious issues and about half that with statins etc, assuming I maintain the weight loss, the odds of making ten years without heart attack , stroke or heart failure were I to regain the 80 kilos is around 0%, so I think in that context hgh risks are acceptable so long as the dose is nowhere near high enough to cause cardiac hypertrophy, but in someone younger with less medical risks it is a different equation. And it is important to look up the adverse effects of hgh, and to be conservative with dosing and not just do the bodybuilding 4iu is fine thing, for me at 58, 1.5iu was too much.

 

[Gt3294a]

There is a surprising lack of studies on hgh , in terms of effects on muscle mass or obesity or quality of life, a few more on trt, but one study in older males showed that using both hgh and testosterone at reasonable doses made about a 5% difference, which is not nothing, but is not huge either. Individually the effect is closer to 2%.

Reason for hgh over tesamorelin is price, it is cheaper. The problem with hgh or secretagogues is that animals with IGF-1 deficiency live longer, and this has been repeated many times. So it is possible that they reduce lifespan. There are no long term studies in humans for obesity or anything similar as it is really only ever given to people with no hgh due to brain injuries or children with short stature. I figure I am at unusually very high risk of cardiovascular disease with 10 year risks of 25+% of serious issues and about half that with statins etc, assuming I maintain the weight loss, the odds of making ten years without heart attack , stroke or heart failure were I to regain the 80 kilos is around 0%, so I think in that context hgh risks are acceptable so long as the dose is nowhere near high enough to cause cardiac hypertrophy, but in someone younger with less medical risks it is a different equation. And it is important to look up the adverse effects of hgh, and to be conservative with dosing and not just do the bodybuilding 4iu is fine thing, for me at 58, 1.5iu was too much.

It is true dwarf mice live longer (that is those studies). And it is true that with a significant HGH deficiency, there are major bone density issues. So that’s where the data is. Also, body builders take 10-12 IU and insulin when gaining muscles and some cruise around 6 IU. The 4 IU dose is a more an uber weight lifter on forums like this and Reddit.

 

[Cannonball72]

0.36mg is almost nothing

Did you mean 0.36 ml every other day?

Good catch, thank you 36mg (.18ml) eod (every other day). I was thinking in ml vs mg.

 

[Cannonball72]

Not sure why you keep implying that I'm not doing the work or don't want to. Thought I was pretty clear in my post - I have a really solid gym routine, I am very strong compared to general population, I was just also fat. Now that I'm bordering-on-not-fat and thinking about what maintenance looks like, I am looking into the options.

From what I have read regarding enclo vs. TRT, it sounds to me like there is a lot less long term safety data for enclo, it works but not as well, and I will be limited to gray market and self management, vs. hopefully getting TRT covered by my insurance. I also don't care about fertility anymore.

Was specifically in reference to this and interest in HGH/secretagogues.

“Goal-wise, I am not looking to add a ton of muscle. Would like to lean out, focus on recovery / prevent orthopedic and joint problems, and not do anything terribly risky in terms of longevity or cancer. ”

 

[Cannonball72]

"enclo vs. TRT, it sounds to me like there is a lot less long term safety data" There is no risk to proper TRT some people need an estrogen blockers and some people have to donate blood.

This is a decision point. True TRT will stop natural production. Takes a long time to restart once stopped. Enclo boosts natural production, which is why it is worth looking into, especially if natural production is low, but still there. It wasn’t an option when I started TRT 10 yrs ago, doc put me on it with test-c about 3 yrs ago. Knowing what I know now, I would have liked that option up front. All that said, test-c injections have treated me wonderfully.

 

[Marct209]

Enclo wasn’t an option for me, I was advised not to take any orals because I abused the shit out of my liver and even after being sober for 8 years my liver panel was not great. I’ve been on TRT injections for over a year now, and I’ve stayed on a lower dose of Tirz weekly (6.25mg). I am 36 years old and I would say I’m in the best shape of my life.

You’ll get a million different answers from a million points of view online but the reality is everyone is different. What works for someone may not work for you. It seems like you’re going the insurance route so I would recommend booking a consultation with someone who takes your insurance.

I don’t have insurance, 🇺🇸 so I eventually switched to UGL after learning everything I could with the clinic for a year.

 

[Cannonball72]

But IF I got to an acceptable level on enclo alone, I would still need to continue enclo indefinitely to maintain that production, right?

Maybe. Enclo gives you the opportunity to optimize supplement stack, and add in heavy weight training (proven to increase natural test production) before shutting down natural production with injection. Buys you time to see results and keeps options open. Injections are really a situation where once you start, you’re pretty much on for life.

By heavy weight training, I do not mean body building, I specifically refer to progressive overload and forcing the body to adapt. I’ve been lifting for well over 10 yrs, it was beneficial to my test numbers for the first couple of years, then it started to drift down again. I lift very heavy, but no one would look at me and think body builder, just very fit.

 

[fatjacked]

What’s your bfp? Not knowing that, which could possibly change things if you said 10 percent and you have been stuck there, increasing your test (say times 2-3) will dramatically outweigh increasing your Igf to say 300 (which seems the most you would want to raise it, from your posts), in my humble opinion. Given your risk profile, I would save the HGH (or tesa etc) for when Igf likely drops more around 50 years old, and you are stuck trying to cut a bit. My 2 cents anyway.

Don't have access to a DEXA scale right now but I'm around 26-27% I think.

 

[fatjacked]

Maybe. Enclo gives you the opportunity to optimize supplement stack, and add in heavy weight training (proven to increase natural test production) before shutting down natural production with injection.

Cool. How should I go about adding heavy weight training to my existing routine of heavy weight training?

 

[Cannonball72]

Cool. How should I go about adding heavy weight training to my existing routine of heavy weight training?

You can take this personally if you want. Or you can look at it as bigger picture requirements of the intervention you inquired about.

The final paragraph of what I laid out suggests that I may have missed something specific to your post. I was writing holistically, not specifically.

“I apologize if I misinterpreted anything. I don’t intend to come across as a know it all. But I’ve been through it and found what really works for me, and if you read the stories of people on this site, you would see a very common pattern to what I shared.”

 

[fatjacked]

Definitely never taking anything personally from strangers on the internet. I'm giving you the business because you've already responded to several posts in this thread, prior to the post I quoted, where I directly told you that I lift heavy.

A lot of people come to this site and ask very basic questions having done close to zero research. I took a little time to give more details about my situation because I have already read a fair bit on everything I asked in my post (and some things I didn't ask about, like enclo and HGC). Some people took the time to factor in those details in their replies, others didn't, which is fine - typically with free advice, you get what you pay for.

 

[Cannonball72]

Definitely never taking anything personally from strangers on the internet. I'm giving you the business because you've already responded to several posts in this thread, prior to the post I quoted, where I directly told you that I lift heavy.

A lot of people come to this site and ask very basic questions having done close to zero research. I took a little time to give more details about my situation because I have already read a fair bit on everything I asked in my post (and some things I didn't ask about, like enclo and HGC). Some people took the time to factor in those details in their replies, others didn't, which is fine - typically with free advice, you get what you pay for.

Fair enough, just bear in mind, many people will see your topic, have the same question and not have your behavioral profile.

My reply(s) was/were generic to your post, but intended broadly.

 

[Meritocrat]

If you have fat to lose, a few cycles of TRT with either CJC/Ipa no DAC, maybe just a single cycle if your weight is not too excessive, should be enough. However, I would stock up on Anastrazole, Enclo, and HcG before I began. But once you finally get rid of the fat to the level you want, I would keep a maintenance dose of a GLP in hand while using TRT alone to achieve body recomp. Like me, you too have low test. Mine is even lower.

Since you said that you dont care about fertility anymore, and that you are doing weight training, it becomes a question of obtaining the maximum benefit from the training you do. On that note, Testo use is the only thing you need. GH is tricky at your relatively young age. Not only does it take a long time to see the benefits, but if you don't have a lot of fat weight to shed, it wouldn't be optimal to use.

IMO, I would like my test levels to be around the 800+ mark regardless of method utilized. So, I don't think that you need GH now except for fat loss. I dont know what your weight loss target is so I cannot speculate. But if you are willing to keep pinning for the rest of your life, TRT should be the way to go.

 

[fatjacked]

If you have fat to lose, a few cycles of TRT with either CJC/Ipa no DAC, maybe just a single cycle if your weight is not too excessive, should be enough. However, I would stock up on Anastrazole, Enclo, and HcG before I began. But once you finally get rid of the fat to the level you want, I would keep a maintenance dose of a GLP in hand while using TRT alone to achieve body recomp. Like me, you too have low test. Mine is even lower.

Since you said that you dont care about fertility anymore, and that you are doing weight training, it becomes a question of obtaining the maximum benefit from the training you do. On that note, Testo use is the only thing you need. GH is tricky at your relatively young age. Not only does it take a long time to see the benefits, but if you don't have a lot of fat weight to shed, it wouldn't be optimal to use.

IMO, I would like my test levels to be around the 800+ mark regardless of method utilized. So, I don't think that you need GH now except for fat loss. I dont know what your weight loss target is so I cannot speculate. But if you are willing to keep pinning for the rest of your life, TRT should be the way to go.

Thanks for the reply. Just to be concrete, I'm 6 feet tall, started at 265, currently 225, my original GW was 220 but I am thinking I will shoot for 210 and recomp from there. I do plan to be on a GLP for maintenance long term.

Given the overlapping effects and risk profiles, my sense was the same as what you say above - test will probably achieve the goals as well as or better than HGH, and with better long term safety data. I had never really considered TRT before the last year or so but have been in the contemplation phase for a while and I think I would be fine with going on it long term if the effects are as advertised.