UGL vs “gray”

[GtownBrown]

I’ve noticed a lot of folks using a new euphemism for what we used to call underground lab peptides, calling it “gray” now. Thought it could be an interesting topic for discussion. My cynical side concludes that this is a way to help buyers ignore the risks involved, since “gray market” makes it sound like pharma with a different supply channel, where “underground lab” conjures images of rogue labs without oversight. Curious what y’all think about this trend.

I have not heard the UGL term before, but the term “gray” market makes sense to me because the items are legal to sell somewhere, just not where we are. Plus, they are for sale on American company websites. I feel like black market implies that the items are illegal most everywhere, like illicit drugs or weapons, or are counterfeits intended to deceive the end consumer. I feel like the gray market just exploits loopholes.

 

[brentm]

The person with the $15 copay thinks the for-profit pharma system is a-okay. The people who would have to pay $1100 per pen, not so much. I can’t say I am terribly surprised by that.

$1100 pens in USA only cost around $200 in Canada. I'm not sure if the rest is subsidized by the government or if EL's pricing model is just tiered this way to meet supply/demand curves in that market?

Having just said that, I recently learned that the USD is now upside down with CAD. Most of my life our dollar was stronger than Canada's. And now it's flipped. $1 CAD = $0.70 USD.

So I guess it'd be around $260 USD for a Canadian pen. This was something I was seriously considering when I was first starting out. I'm about 3 hours away from Canada. Not sure about doing that monthly though.

Still hell of a deal.

And that is what I consider to be closer to the definition of "Gray Market" peps.

My best guess on why pens are $1100 retail is simply "because they can". And I still think it's a hell of a deal if those get put to use to improve health and life longevity.

 

[nurseratchit]

I’ve noticed a lot of folks using a new euphemism for what we used to call underground lab peptides, calling it “gray” now. Thought it could be an interesting topic for discussion. My cynical side concludes that this is a way to help buyers ignore the risks involved, since “gray market” makes it sound like pharma with a different supply channel, where “underground lab” conjures images of rogue labs without oversight. Curious what y’all think about this trend.

I’ve noticed a lot of folks using a new euphemism for what we used to call underground lab peptides, calling it “gray” now. Thought it could be an interesting topic for discussion. My cynical side concludes that this is a way to help buyers ignore the risks involved, since “gray market” makes it sound like pharma with a different supply channel, where “underground lab” conjures images of rogue labs without oversight. Curious what y’all think about this trend.

I agree, it’s a little fib we tell ourselves. Regardless what we think, law enforcement considers it illegal black market drugs.

 

[GimmeABreak]

$1100 pens in USA only cost around $200 in Canada. I'm not sure if the rest is subsidized by the government or if EL's pricing model is just tiered this way to meet supply/demand curves in that market?

Having just said that, I recently learned that the USD is now upside down with CAD. Most of my life our dollar was stronger than Canada's. And now it's flipped. $1 CAD = $0.70 USD.

So I guess it'd be around $260 USD for a Canadian pen. This was something I was seriously considering when I was first starting out. I'm about 3 hours away from Canada. Not sure about doing that monthly though.

Still hell of a deal.

And that is what I consider to be closer to the definition of "Gray Market" peps.

My best guess on why pens are $1100 retail is simply "because they can". And I still think it's a hell of a deal if those get put to use to improve health and life longevity.

The $200 CAD pen costs $140USD. I have an office in Canada and loosely track the exchange rate. It is currently $1.42 CAD per $1 USD. It typically runs closer to $1.25 CAD per $1 USD but at $1.42 it is approaching a five-year high (or low if you are buying US goods using CAD).

I think part of the reason the cost is so high in the US is the pharma cost to get drugs through FDA approval. It can cost over $1b (and often more) to get a drug through stage three trials.

I am not sure how other countries approve drugs for sale to their citizens, do they look to the US FDA's approval and then rubber stamp?

This cost prevents a lot of drugs from making it onto the market. Many of the peps that we research would make great mainstream medical treatments but if the market demand for a drug isn't in the billions $ then the ROI doesn't pencil out and the drugs never come to market.

 

[brentm]

The $200 CAD pen costs $140USD. I have an office in Canada and loosely track the exchange rate. It is currently $1.42 CAD per $1 USD. It typically runs closer to $1.25 CAD per $1 USD but at $1.42 it is approaching a five-year high (or low if you are buying US goods using CAD).

I think my news source at the time was using 200 as the price in USD. But if it was quoted in CAD, then yeah, 140USD.

Either way, it's way cheaper than what you see in USA.

 

[Lullabytreehugger]

The reason we get a 4mg Ozempic pen for $200AUD is the government talks with all big pharmaceutical companies wishing to sell products in the Australian market. The government tells these companies we will only allow a max sell price of xyz. I think for ozempic 4mg pen it cannot exceed $240aud. The highest price I have seen it sold here is for around $210.

I have a pharmacist friend who tells me whatever our cost price from the big companies we only add a 10-15% margin on top.

So lets say Nova Nordisk is selling ozempic 4mg for $180aud to the pharmacy. Then the pharmacy will sell it to you for $198-207

Our governing body in charge of medicines in Australia is called the TGA (Therapeutic Goods Administration).

Now with wegovy recently approved prices are much higher. As wegovy has been approved for weight loss and ozempic is only prescribed for diabetes patients. 1mg x4 injections of wegovy costs $280-340.

Same drug. Same quantity. Exact same pen design. Two different prices. Is that not greed?

 

[Glp1judd]

I don’t think the pharma companies ever expected this class of drugs to be this across the board successful.

Or they wouldn’t have released them.

Forr the same reason we still don’t have tires or lightbulbs that last forever.

And the same reason why curing hepatitis and pylori took decades to go mainstream.

It’s just not profitable to CURE the golden goose.

Now they need to capitalize (and or sabotage) by any means necessary.

 

[zpped]

I don’t think the pharma companies ever expected this class of drugs to be this across the board successful.

Or they wouldn’t have released them.

Forr the same reason we still don’t have tires or lightbulbs that last forever.

And the same reason why curing hepatitis and pylori took decades to go mainstream.

It’s just not profitable to CURE the golden goose.

Now they need to capitalize (and or sabotage) by any means necessary.

Tires and light bulbs (incandescent) are both consumable items for reasons of physics, not by any conspiracy.

A rubber that is capable of resisting any wear from use on a car is inherently bad at providing traction. And if you go look at any of the lightbulbs that have "been on for 100 years" they are bad at providing much light.

Pharma companies are in competition with each other, which is why we will see continuous improvements in these drugs and eventually lower prices as well.

 

[brentm]

Same drug. Same quantity. Exact same pen design. Two different prices. Is that not greed?

It could be viewed as greed.

My college economics professor taught us that the same seat in a movie theater will have Adult, Child, Student, and Senior Citizen pricing. And this was to attempt to capture the dollars from all markets segments.

My guess is that the weight loss customers are viewed as a different market segment than diabetics?

It's a good point. I'm curious as to the real answer.

 

[Lullabytreehugger]

It could be viewed as greed.

My college economics professor taught us that the same seat in a movie theater will have Adult, Child, Student, and Senior Citizen pricing. And this was to attempt to capture the dollars from all markets segments.

My guess is that the weight loss customers are viewed as a different market segment than diabetics?

It's a good point. I'm curious as to the real answer.

It is greed. Simple as that.

While I can buy sema20 from one of the vendors for $130usd
Thats 200 mgs of semaglutide.

Not 4mgs of ozempic/wegovy.

Semaglutide is one of the cheapest raw powders to produce on the market …

The other day I was in my local pharmacy and this little old lady was $3.70 short on her medicine and asked the pharmacist to put it back on the shelf … she simply couldnt afford it …

Real world stories big pharma doesnt want to hear about … I felt so sorry for the lady …

 

[zpped]

It is greed. Simple as that.

While I can buy sema20 from one of the vendors for $130usd
Thats 200 mgs of semaglutide.

Not 4mgs of ozempic/wegovy.

Semaglutide is one of the cheapest raw powders to produce on the market …

The other day I was in my local pharmacy and this little old lady was $3.70 short on her medicine and asked the pharmacist to put it back on the shelf … she simply couldnt afford it …

Real world stories big pharma doesnt want to hear about … I felt so sorry for the lady …

You're conflating the cost of manufacturing with all the other costs of operating a pharma company. R&D, legal, marketing, accounting. It's way easier and cheaper to sell something that someone else designed. That's not to say it isn't overpriced but it's not that simple.

 

[brentm]

The other day I was in my local pharmacy and this little old lady was $3.70 short on her medicine and asked the pharmacist to put it back on the shelf … she simply couldnt afford it …

Real world stories big pharma doesnt want to hear about … I felt so sorry for the lady …

I probably would have stepped up and given the old lady a 5 and make her feel good by saying something like "I'll save you a trip to the ATM".

 

[Lullabytreehugger]

I probably would have stepped up and given the old lady a 5 and make her feel good by saying something like "I'll save you a trip to the ATM".

And cause her to feel shame? I let her have her dignity.

 

[brentm]

And cause her to feel shame? I let her have her dignity.

Reading comprehension really seems to be a struggle.

I implied that I'd mitigate the shame by saying something like "I'll save you a trip to the ATM". Or you could have said bank here knowing she's older and probably not inclined to use a card.

Either way... I think you probably just feel like a tool for not helping her.

 

[hexagonal]

You're conflating the cost of manufacturing with all the other costs of operating a pharma company. R&D, legal, marketing, accounting. It's way easier and cheaper to sell something that someone else designed. That's not to say it isn't overpriced but it's not that simple.

Marketing is another part of the pharma industry that most of the modern world doesn't need - drug advertisements aren't a thing in much of the world outside of the USA.

Would be nice if it went away in the USA, too.

 

[zpped]

Marketing is another part of the pharma industry that most of the modern world doesn't need - drug advertisements aren't a thing in much of the world outside of the USA.

Would be nice if it went away in the USA, too.

Sure, no disagreement. But it's not really the point of my post.

 

[keangkong]

Marketing is another part of the pharma industry that most of the modern world doesn't need - drug advertisements aren't a thing in much of the world outside of the USA.

Would be nice if it went away in the USA, too.

I love watching the drug TV ads. The visuals are great. The people look so happy and healthy. It might be a relatively old woman and man, but they look so happy and healthy. The weather looks good. The world looks so great. But then if you listen to what they're saying, you'll hear how terrible the medicine is. The audio will mainly be warnings.

 

[hexagonal]

Sure, no disagreement. But it's not really the point of my post.

Just pointing out another thing that drives healthcare cost up in general. A lot of Americans are surprised to hear that even in culturally similar places like Australia and the UK people aren't bombarded by drug ads.

 

[zpped]

Just pointing out another thing that drives healthcare cost up in general. A lot of Americans are surprised to hear that even in culturally similar places like Australia and the UK people aren't bombarded by drug ads.

American here, can't remember the last time I've seen a drug ad either... they are only played on certain media to certain audiences.

 

[exploitedworkerbee]

The reason we get a 4mg Ozempic pen for $200AUD is the government talks with all big pharmaceutical companies wishing to sell products in the Australian market. The government tells these companies we will only allow a max sell price of xyz. I think for ozempic 4mg pen it cannot exceed $240aud. The highest price I have seen it sold here is for around $210.

I have a pharmacist friend who tells me whatever our cost price from the big companies we only add a 10-15% margin on top.

So lets say Nova Nordisk is selling ozempic 4mg for $180aud to the pharmacy. Then the pharmacy will sell it to you for $198-207

Our governing body in charge of medicines in Australia is called the TGA (Therapeutic Goods Administration).

Now with wegovy recently approved prices are much higher. As wegovy has been approved for weight loss and ozempic is only prescribed for diabetes patients. 1mg x4 injections of wegovy costs $280-340.

Same drug. Same quantity. Exact same pen design. Two different prices. Is that not greed?

The term is “price caps” and in the USA the business guys brand this as communism very effectively. Us Americans don’t know what communism is anymore, but we know it is the worst thing there is, so it won’t ever happen. Pharma lobbyists and super PACs will convince voters that price caps equate to bread lines.