UGL vs “gray”

My mounjaro pen cost me $790 AUD for 60mg pen. Do you think that is affordable?
$790 AUD = $505 USD - I would say yes that is much more affordable than the roughly $1300 USD ELL charges in the US. A few months ago this was what compound Tirz cost per month. I think if it was $500/mo in the US there would be fewer people looking for alternatives and more insurance coverage.
 
$790 AUD = $505 USD - I would say yes that is much more affordable than the roughly $1300 USD ELL charges in the US. A few months ago this was what compound Tirz cost per month. I think if it was $500/mo in the US there would be fewer people looking for alternatives and more insurance coverage.

While people in the US definitely have it worse, that's still not really affordable for anyone.
 
I think the leather handbag isn't a good example here although I understand the intent. Leather makes nice things and ugly things. Nobody buys a random unknown item just because it says "leather" in the description. Is it a men's wallet or a ladies shoe?

Tirz is a substance, it's either Tirz or it's not. Tirz is the patented and only active ingredient in Zep/Mounjaro. You can get it tested and verified.

On a side note thanks @exploitedworkerbee for spelling it "gray". I know it's acceptable as "grey" but I have a personal aversion to that spelling after working for the dog bus company for 25yrs 😕
(As we are discussing verbiage, I would like to ask whether or not my dog can take that bus, whether grey or gray.)
 
(As we are discussing verbiage, I would like to ask whether or not my dog can take that bus, whether grey or gray.)
I don't know the current policy (I left in 2011). During Katrina some people left New Orleans with their dogs and were told at various stopping points enroute they couldn't continue with their pet. In one case I offered to pet sit and fly the dog to the family's destination because my City Manager was telling them they couldn't continue. They were a confused non English speaking family with small children crying and devastated by the situation. I was a food service manager arguing if someone gets on the bus with a pet they should reach their destination with the pet and what a bad look displacing pets/owners was for a company who's logo was a dog.

I gave them contact info and never heard from them but found a home for the dog. After that I'd tell anyone I saw arriving at my terminal with a pet to say it's a service animal and legally the company couldn't do anything (at that time under the ADA).

In other words I wouldn't risk it.
 
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I think EWB is right. It's a euphemism.

It feels more "black" market to me.

Gray market items typically are genuine products sold in locations they were not intended. You can buy "gray" market Nikon and Canon lenses for less money. They are not counterfeit (like our peptides are), they're just Nikon lenses intended for sale in markets with different economic conditions.

You lose out on any warranty with these types of gray market items. But they aren't counterfeit.

I view the research grade peptides as black market, counterfeit peptides. A counterfeit Rolex watch will pass the sniff test often times to average watch enthusiasts, and it even tells the time and date. But it's still not a Rolex.

I think of our peps as "Black Market". For me, gray market would be going to Canada to get genuine Novo pens and exploiting that loophole.
 
I don't think I've ever heard of a chemical compound being called counterfeit. You can have counterfeit Zepbound, but tirzepatide is tirzepatide. If I buy acetaminophen from a Chinese lab it's not counterfeit Tylenol unless they're throwing Tylenol on the bottle and trying to misrepresent it as the name brand.
 
I don't think I've ever heard of a chemical compound being called counterfeit. You can have counterfeit Zepbound, but tirzepatide is tirzepatide. If I buy acetaminophen from a Chinese lab it's not counterfeit Tylenol unless they're throwing Tylenol on the bottle and trying to misrepresent it as the name brand.
The only way that you could have counterfeit tirzepatide is if the product is claimed to be tirzepatide but the lab says it's not.
 
The only way that you could have counterfeit tirzepatide is if the product is claimed to be tirzepatide but the lab says it's not.

Doesn't the molecule patent give them exclusive legal rights to control who manufactures and distributes the molecule?


Even if they never enforce the molecule patent, I thought it did afford them legal recourse to shutdown unauthorized vendors producing this molecule.

But I've only seen them enforce their brand trademark.
 
Doesn't the molecule patent give them exclusive legal rights to control who manufactures and distributes the molecule?


Even if they never enforce the molecule patent, I thought it did afford them legal recourse to shutdown unauthorized vendors producing this molecule.

But I've only seen them enforce their brand trademark.
Let’s assume the patent is being violated. (While I’m a lawyer, I know little law outside my unrelated area of expertise and can’t opine on whether there is a violation.) It would seem to me at least the tirzepatide produced in violation of a patent is still genuine tirzepatide. Presenting tirzepatide not manufactured by Eli Lilly as Zepbound or Mounjaro would make it counterfeit.
 
Let’s assume the patent is being violated. (While I’m a lawyer, I know little law outside my unrelated area of expertise and can’t opine on whether there is a violation.) It would seem to me at least the tirzepatide produced in violation of a patent is still genuine tirzepatide. Presenting tirzepatide not manufactured by Eli Lilly as Zepbound or Mounjaro would make it counterfeit.

I suppose it's a matter of word choice.

It may be more accurate to state that Tirzepatide produced in a dark lab in China and sold as research grade is "patent infringing". However the molecule itself is genuine in that it is indistinguishable from molecules produced in EL's lab.

So for counterfeiting, it needs to infringe on the trademark. It still may be patent infringing but the molecules are genuine.

Is what I stated above accurate?

 
Let’s assume the patent is being violated. (While I’m a lawyer, I know little law outside my unrelated area of expertise and can’t opine on whether there is a violation.) It would seem to me at least the tirzepatide produced in violation of a patent is still genuine tirzepatide. Presenting tirzepatide not manufactured by Eli Lilly as Zepbound or Mounjaro would make it counterfeit.
Tirz is still only one ingredient in the finished product that we inject. So counterfeit might not be the right legal term but its the correct analogy because most people aren't buying raw tirz. We say we're buying tirz but were actually buying a knockoff of zep.
 
Doesn't the molecule patent give them exclusive legal rights to control who manufactures and distributes the molecule?


Even if they never enforce the molecule patent, I thought it did afford them legal recourse to shutdown unauthorized vendors producing this molecule.

But I've only seen them enforce their brand trademark.
Infringing on a patent doesn't mean counterfeit, though.

made in imitation of something else with intent to deceive

If something actually is tirzepatide, it is tirzepatide. Not a counterfeit version of tirzepatide. If it tries to be passed off as zepbound instead of just being tirzepatide, then it becomes counterfeit.

But the legality of something in America is a concern for us, not for a company in China. UGL isn't a strictly defined term, but my understanding is that these companies are hardly underground in China - they exist, the government is aware of them, and steps in in certain cases where they do begin breaking Chinese law. (Patents are valid in China but as I'm sure we've all heard just how enforceable they are is a whole different matter).

Now, the grey market definition doesn't fit exactly either, so I understand the resistance to using it. It's not an accurate term. But I think for UGL to be an accurate term, the labs would need to actually be underground in China, and not operating in plain sight.
 
I have no legal ground, but my ethical ground says that those attempting to patent a naturally occurring molecule can go fuck themselves.

Tirzepatide is not found in nature. It's synthetic.

It has elements found in nature, but the molecule itself is not something you can harvest from a once-living organism. It doesn't exist.
 
Let us break it down price by price.

My 60mg mounjaro pen will cost me $505 USD

High quality 99%+ purity chinese tirz30 costs me $160usd for ten vials.

That comes down to $32USD for two vials (total 60mg probably overdosed as well lets say 62mg).

Now compare china dosage that I can get from the ten vials which is 300mg of tirz vs mounjaro 60mg.

Chinese tirz will last me much longer as well.

Screw American capitalism, they only bring about patents to further increase their own profit and corporate greed.

My money. I earnt it. Free market economy. If america wants my money, make your prices cheaper. Simple as that. No government can tell me what I should do with my own money, I’ll spend it any which way I want.

If Eli Lilly or Nova Nordisk can offer me chinese prices then tomorrow I’ll stop buying imported peps.

It is all about affordability. Cost of living pressures in Australia is very high at the moment. Rent has gone up. Food has gone up. Drs fees have gone up. Fuel has gone up. Prior to covid a 1kg bag of tomatoes used to be $2aud. Now you cant get it for less than $4.50
 
So NN spends over $10 billion in research over the last three decades and they have only been profitable the last few years. Why shouldn't they make their money back that they spent on the backend regardless of what it costs them to actually produce it now?

Fortunately, my insurance covers Ozempic and has for the last 3 years. I pay $15/mo. My insurance pays over $1000/mo. I am here in case I get dropped....

I won't even entertain the health insurance cost argument here. I lived in England for part of my childhood and remember my mother having to wait 4 months for a dentist appt... my cousin's son hurt himself playing rugby a few months ago. 3 weeks wait for an MRI or pay out of pocket? We impatient Americans would not last a minute in one of these countries and would be paying out of pocket, like they do, for everything.
 
Rather than counterfeit or black market Tirz, why not Generic Tirz. Similar to the acetaminophen=Tylenol that @Hexigonal mentioned in an earlier post
It is actually very similar to a generic. But with the huge difference that generic also means it was manufactured and distributed under government regulation
 
So NN spends over $10 billion in research over the last three decades and they have only been profitable the last few years. Why shouldn't they make their money back that they spent on the backend regardless of what it costs them to actually produce it now?

Fortunately, my insurance covers Ozempic and has for the last 3 years. I pay $15/mo. My insurance pays over $1000/mo. I am here in case I get dropped....

I won't even entertain the health insurance cost argument here. I lived in England for part of my childhood and remember my mother having to wait 4 months for a dentist appt... my cousin's son hurt himself playing rugby a few months ago. 3 weeks wait for an MRI or pay out of pocket? We impatient Americans would not last a minute in one of these countries and would be paying out of pocket, like they do, for everything.
The government should fund (and well!) R&D and production of drugs. I don't think pharma companies are necessarily evil, but it's very apparent that incentives are misaligned with the drug industry being for-profit. Also, by the sources I can find, NN has been profitable since at least 2009 - https://www.statista.com/statistics/947619/net-profit-of-novo-nordisk/ - and based on the trends, likely for longer than that. And, to be clear, Novo Nordisk's market cap is currently 370b. Lilly's is 740b. These are not companies that are barely keeping their heads above water after now that they've found the light at the end of the tunnel.

But, that's orthogonal to my point either way - NN and EL and co. should simply not exist in their current incarnation. Profit driving what you spend your time researching and bringing to market heavily incentivizes long term management of disease over curing it. It disincentivizes any sort of work that is unlikely to produce a high ROI.

Even from a practical perspective, having a happy and healthy population is key to having a productive population.

Obviously, that's not the world we live in, and I think that yes, EL and NN should be able to seek profits. But we also know that they are making plenty of money and would recoup their R&D costs and much much more at significantly lower pricing than we have in America, where the pricing is far higher than even in other similarly wealthy countries.

The answer to why is complex, but basically none of those reasons are beneficial to the citizens of the country on the whole.


Wait times are also a complex topic. They are based on assessed medical necessity. It's not perfect, and lots of countries with socialized medicine do better than England does, but the worst waits are for elective procedures or for situations where the evidence is that it is not a serious health concern. But there's also nothing inherent that requires socialized drug development to also result in socialized healthcare, regardless of your thoughts on the latter.
 

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