US judge bars copies of Lilly weight-loss drug

Man, things gonna get interesting.

(Why do you get an extension if you are a bigger company? If anything it ought to be the reverse, a bigger business is more likely to weather a loss in revenue.)
 
Morbius said:
Man, things gonna get interesting.

(Why do you get an extension if you are a bigger company? If anything it ought to be the reverse, a bigger business is more likely to weather a loss in revenue.)
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Because the 503B pharmacies are envisioned as compounding beforehand to meet a need. The 503As are only supposed to compound for specific patients. Strictly speaking, it's not size that counts, but the provision that of law that authorizes the compounding that makes a difference.
 
StopCraving_12 said:
"Small compounding pharmacies must halt selling copies immediately, larger facilities by March 19"

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I know many compounding pharmacies plan to continue compounding. The FDA's announcement and the court ruling as to it affect only affect one exception to the ban on compounding of patented medications. There are many others. See Food Drug & Cosmetic Act §§ 503A (21 U.S.C. § 353a), 503B (21 U.S.C. § 353b). Despite me being a lawyer, this is far outside my area of expertise. But I have heard from lawyers from compounding pharmacies who say the plan on continuing to compound. I make no predictions about how this will all turn out. I'm not super interested in this topic right now simply because I believe the folks using compounding pharmacies ought to switch to grey.
 
keangkong said:
I know many compounding pharmacies plan to continue compounding. The FDA's announcement and the court ruling as to it affect only affect one exception to the ban on compounding of patented medications. There are many others. See Food Drug & Cosmetic Act §§ 503A (21 U.S.C. § 353a), 503B (21 U.S.C. § 353b). Despite me being a lawyer, this is far outside my area of expertise. But I have heard from lawyers from compounding pharmacies who say the plan on continuing to compound. I make no predictions about how this will all turn out. I'm not super interested in this topic right now simply because I believe the folks using compounding pharmacies ought to switch to grey.
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I appreciate a lawyer’s perspective.

I don’t know if they everyone should be switching. The GLP1 Facebook groups prove that some people need a lot of hand holding. The amount of people who accidentally inject their thumb is incredible. Idk even know how that would happen
 
Areyoukitten said:
I appreciate a lawyer’s perspective.

I don’t know if they everyone should be switching. The GLP1 Facebook groups prove that some people need a lot of hand holding. The amount of people who accidentally inject their thumb is incredible. Idk even know how that would happen
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Wait that's a thing? I thought @DwightTheDelight was joking.
 
keangkong said:
I know many compounding pharmacies plan to continue compounding. The FDA's announcement and the court ruling as to it affect only affect one exception to the ban on compounding of patented medications. There are many others. See Food Drug & Cosmetic Act §§ 503A (21 U.S.C. § 353a), 503B (21 U.S.C. § 353b). Despite me being a lawyer, this is far outside my area of expertise. But I have heard from lawyers from compounding pharmacies who say the plan on continuing to compound. I make no predictions about how this will all turn out. I'm not super interested in this topic right now simply because I believe the folks using compounding pharmacies ought to switch to grey.
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This forum is going to get very Interesting in the future I predict. Probably a lot more interesting than just us parrot owners in here with a weird post or two.
 
Super Trips said:
This forum is going to get very Interesting in the future I predict. Probably a lot more interesting than just us parrot owners in here with a weird post or two.
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Wait wait wait wait wait..... US parrot owners? 😍😍
 
Super Trips said:
Yes! my GCC is on my shoulder right now her name is EVA
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Ahh I love GCC's they're so tiny and squishable 🥰 I've got a poice, he's related to a Senegal or Meyers. Mine is evil, though.
 
chmuse said:
Ahh I love GCC's they're so tiny and squishable 🥰 I've got a poice, he's related to a Senegal or Meyers. Mine is evil, though.
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I got lucky mine is a cuddle bug
IMG_6198.jpeg
 
hexagonal said:
I've pricked my thumb when re-capping the pen needles. They get bent and shoot out the side of the top. Oops.

Not sure how someone would managed to inject their thumb, though...
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Oh come ON. Even you?!

I suspect you earned unreliable narrator, there's no way.
 
chmuse said:
Oh come ON. Even you?!

I suspect you earned unreliable narrator, there's no way.
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To be fair, I'm paying much less attention after I've finished the injection! Just recapping stuff, twisting it off the top of the pen, tossing it in the sharps container.
 
hexagonal said:
To be fair, I'm paying much less attention after I've finished the injection! Just recapping stuff, twisting it off the top of the pen, tossing it in the sharps container.
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I'm still gonna give you side eye. At least until I do it myself, then I promise to DM you and apologize.
 
hexagonal said:
I've pricked my thumb when re-capping the pen needles. They get bent and shoot out the side of the top. Oops.

Not sure how someone would managed to inject their thumb, though...
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i.... have done this more times than i'd like to admit. i just stop paying attention once the important part of injecting myself is done.
 
chmuse said:
I'm still gonna give you side eye. At least until I do it myself, then I promise to DM you and apologize.
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I think side eye is the problem, or depth perception. I've got wonky vision and have stuck myself replacing syringe caps as well (the needle will stick right through the orange cap). Hitting the plunger at the same time is beyond me. I have a good time sewing my hand to all my mending and hemming projects. 🪡
 
nonyabizznez said:
I think side eye is the problem, or depth perception. I've got wonky vision and have stuck myself replacing syringe caps as well (the needle will stick right through the orange cap). Hitting the plunger at the same time is beyond me. I have a good time sewing my hand to all my mending and hemming projects. 🪡
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It's probably an anxiety thing. I'm so afraid of sticking myself that I'm extra careful.
 
chmuse said:
It's probably an anxiety thing. I'm so afraid of sticking myself that I'm extra careful.
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Thumb injector here ! Racing out the door late for work, removed the cap, wasn't looking and thought the pen was the correct direction pressing on my thigh and boop --- holy hell the pain 😭😳😭 !! Straight to the thumb.

Then a friend told me tell Lilly you wasted a pen and they will replace it ... and sure enough; here came an entire new box... a whole box !! 😳

Thumb injector's may not be so stupid after all 😆🤣
 
keangkong said:
Because the 503B pharmacies are envisioned as compounding beforehand to meet a need. The 503As are only supposed to compound for specific patients. Strictly speaking, it's not size that counts, but the provision that of law that authorizes the compounding that makes a difference.
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Does this include the tirz with added this and that I wonder ?
 
Valerie said:
Does this include the tirz with added this and that I wonder ?
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The 503B pharmacies clearly cannot get around compounding restrictions simply by adding something for a specific patient. The 503A pharmacies may do so. Section 503A bars them generally from compounding what is "essentially a copy of a commercially available drug product" except when done irregularly and only manufactured in small amounts.

However, the term “ 'essentially a copy of a commercially available drug product' does not include a drug product in which there is a change, made for an identified individual patient, which produces for that patient a significant difference, as determined by the prescribing practitioner, between the compounded drug and the comparable commercially available drug product." Food, Drug & Cosmetic Act, sec. 503A(b)(2). The attorneys for compounding pharmacies will try to make this exception as big as possible and argue that the language of the Food Drug & Cosmetic Act makes the prescribing physician the only person that can decide. That interpretation seems to create such a big loophole that it swallows the rule: A doctor can always ask the compounding pharmacy to tweak the drug in some way. I won't venture an opinion as to what the outcome will be because (1) as far as I can tell, no one really knows right now and (2) this is far outside my area of expertise. However, if a compounding pharmacy is selling tirzepatide with some special additive that supposedly makes it work better, there is a good chance that whatever was added is an attempt to get around compounding restrictions.
 
keangkong said:
The 503B pharmacies clearly cannot get around compounding restrictions simply by adding something for a specific patient. The 503A pharmacies may do so. Section 503A bars them generally from compounding what is "essentially a copy of a commercially available drug product" except when done irregularly and only manufactured in small amounts.

However, the term “ 'essentially a copy of a commercially available drug product' does not include a drug product in which there is a change, made for an identified individual patient, which produces for that patient a significant difference, as determined by the prescribing practitioner, between the compounded drug and the comparable commercially available drug product." Food, Drug & Cosmetic Act, sec. 503A(b)(2). The attorneys for compounding pharmacies will try to make this exception as big as possible and argue that the language of the Food Drug & Cosmetic Act makes the prescribing physician the only person that can decide. That interpretation seems to create such a big loophole that it swallows the rule: A doctor can always ask the compounding pharmacy to tweak the drug in some way. I won't venture an opinion as to what the outcome will be because (1) as far as I can tell, no one really knows right now and (2) this is far outside my area of expertise. However, if a compounding pharmacy is selling tirzepatide with some special additive that supposedly makes it work better, there is a good chance that whatever was added is an attempt to get around compounding restrictions.
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AFAIK the compounding pharmacies have been adding one or another B vitamin for that very reason, even during the FDA-declared shortage.

I wonder, though, in a more truly legitimate way, what a patient's recourse is when a doctor wants her to take a dosage of something that's between the offered dosages. For example, starting tirz titration at 1mg instead of 2.5. Or knocking the dosage down a bit for a T2 diabetic who's hit intolerable side effects, but might not get adequate benefit by dropping down a full 2.5mg. I assume compounding is the only solution. So we might see a lot of 2/4/6/8/9.5 mg tirz prescriptions soon...?
 
indolent said:
AFAIK the compounding pharmacies have been adding one or another B vitamin for that very reason, even during the FDA-declared shortage.

I wonder, though, in a more truly legitimate way, what a patient's recourse is when a doctor wants her to take a dosage of something that's between the offered dosages. For example, starting tirz titration at 1mg instead of 2.5. Or knocking the dosage down a bit for a T2 diabetic who's hit intolerable side effects, but might not get adequate benefit by dropping down a full 2.5mg. I assume compounding is the only solution. So we might see a lot of 2/4/6/8/9.5 mg tirz prescriptions soon...?
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Some compounding pharmacies are already doing so.
 
keangkong said:
The 503B pharmacies clearly cannot get around compounding restrictions simply by adding something for a specific patient. The 503A pharmacies may do so. Section 503A bars them generally from compounding what is "essentially a copy of a commercially available drug product" except when done irregularly and only manufactured in small amounts.

However, the term “ 'essentially a copy of a commercially available drug product' does not include a drug product in which there is a change, made for an identified individual patient, which produces for that patient a significant difference, as determined by the prescribing practitioner, between the compounded drug and the comparable commercially available drug product." Food, Drug & Cosmetic Act, sec. 503A(b)(2). The attorneys for compounding pharmacies will try to make this exception as big as possible and argue that the language of the Food Drug & Cosmetic Act makes the prescribing physician the only person that can decide. That interpretation seems to create such a big loophole that it swallows the rule: A doctor can always ask the compounding pharmacy to tweak the drug in some way. I won't venture an opinion as to what the outcome will be because (1) as far as I can tell, no one really knows right now and (2) this is far outside my area of expertise. However, if a compounding pharmacy is selling tirzepatide with some special additive that supposedly makes it work better, there is a good chance that whatever was added is an attempt to get around compounding restrictions.
Click to expand...

keangkong said:
The 503B pharmacies clearly cannot get around compounding restrictions simply by adding something for a specific patient. The 503A pharmacies may do so. Section 503A bars them generally from compounding what is "essentially a copy of a commercially available drug product" except when done irregularly and only manufactured in small amounts.

However, the term “ 'essentially a copy of a commercially available drug product' does not include a drug product in which there is a change, made for an identified individual patient, which produces for that patient a significant difference, as determined by the prescribing practitioner, between the compounded drug and the comparable commercially available drug product." Food, Drug & Cosmetic Act, sec. 503A(b)(2). The attorneys for compounding pharmacies will try to make this exception as big as possible and argue that the language of the Food Drug & Cosmetic Act makes the prescribing physician the only person that can decide. That interpretation seems to create such a big loophole that it swallows the rule: A doctor can always ask the compounding pharmacy to tweak the drug in some way. I won't venture an opinion as to what the outcome will be because (1) as far as I can tell, no one really knows right now and (2) this is far outside my area of expertise. However, if a compounding pharmacy is selling tirzepatide with some special additive that supposedly makes it work better, there is a good chance that whatever was added is an attempt to get around compounding restrictions.
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Kong, I’m a lawyer too and, while I find all of this quite interesting, I am certainly far from an expert. This all makes me ruminate. If EL and the FDA want to hold hands while skipping into the compounding patent enforcement battleground, I think many of the compounding pharmacies will have problems. It would be hard to argue that a peptide formulation is made by a pharmacy pursuant to a doctor’s prescription for a specific patient’s needs when nearly all the compounded tirzepatide for a particular telehealth provider has the same formulation: i.e. tirzepatide plus B-12 or L- carnitine, or niacinamide. If they litigated then successfully obtained patient records in discovery, it would be hard to claim a specific patient formulation when all patients are receiving the same formulation without supportive clinical documentation. I used Henry, then Mochi, back in my beginning peptide hobby and I imagine the Tirz included B12 or some other additive but there was no documented need for it.
 
Batscout said:
Kong, I’m a lawyer too and, while I find all of this quite interesting, I am certainly far from an expert. This all makes me ruminate. If EL and the FDA want to hold hands while skipping into the compounding patent enforcement battleground, I think many of the compounding pharmacies will have problems. It would be hard to argue that a peptide formulation is made by a pharmacy pursuant to a doctor’s prescription for a specific patient’s needs when nearly all the compounded tirzepatide for a particular telehealth provider has the same formulation: i.e. tirzepatide plus B-12 or L- carnitine, or niacinamide. If they litigated then successfully obtained patient records in discovery, it would be hard to claim a specific patient formulation when all patients are receiving the same formulation without supportive clinical documentation. I used Henry, then Mochi, back in my beginning peptide hobby and I imagine the Tirz included B12 or some other additive but there was no documented need for it.
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What you wrote make sense. I do note that the text of the US code makes the prescriber the person who determines the medical need. I wonder if Eli Lilly or the FDA can override these determinations based upon them being obvious subterfuges. Also, I wonder whether state medical boards would get involved and seek to discipline doctors. These are just thoughts. As a legal research geek, this is enormously interesting for me. I’ve tried to avoid writing about this issue much because I worry my lack of any practical experience in this field would cause me to make uninformed statements. I also wonder whether state regulatory boards, which actually conduct most 503A pharmacy regulation, would simply tell compounding pharmacies that these are subterfuges and must stop. I believe lay people overestimate the considerable power of huge corporations and underestimate the authority of state regulatory bodies, such as those that regulate pharmacies and physicians.
 
Morbius said:
"Use one weird trick to keep your compounding pharmacy open! FDA regulators hate this!"
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The FDA usually doesn’t normally take enforcement actions against 503A pharmacies even though the FDA is legally empowered to do so. The FDA leave that to state regulators. If state regulators tell your pharmacy that it can’t do something, it takes an enormously brave person to defy them.

Edit: I added the word normally because I had unintentionally omitted it. I'm sure that at some point the FDA must have taken an enforcement action against 503A pharmacies because legally it has the authority to do so.
 
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keangkong said:
The FDA usually doesn’t take enforcement actions against 503A pharmacies even though the FDA is legally empowered to do so. The FDA leave that to state regulators. If state regulators tell your pharmacy that it can’t do something, it takes an enormously brave person to defy them.
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You are right about that.
 
keangkong said:
What you wrote make sense. I do note that the text of the US code makes the prescriber the person who determines the medical need. I wonder if Eli Lilly or the FDA can override these determinations based upon them being obvious subterfuges. Also, I wonder whether state medical boards would get involved and seek to discipline doctors. These are just thoughts. As a legal research geek, this is enormously interesting for me. I’ve tried to avoid writing about this issue much because I worry my lack of any practical experience in this field would cause me to make uninformed statements. I also wonder whether state regulatory boards, which actually conduct most 503A pharmacy regulation, would simply tell compounding pharmacies that these are subterfuges and must stop. I believe lay people overestimate the considerable power of huge corporations and underestimate the authority of state regulatory bodies, such as those that regulate pharmacies and physicians.
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I don’t have much practical experience with state pharmacy regs either, although I do also have an MHA and work in healthcare. You have raised some excellent points. I will enjoy following the legal path of peptide patents.
 
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