Fat cell memory

[Don]

Many people here, including me, used to be at a high body fat percentage and lost a significant amount of weight. Some lost more, some less. I’m currently around 12% body fat after a long diet.

One thing that still bothers me is the concept of “fat cell memory.” From what I understand, during weight loss we mainly shrink and empty fat cells, but we don’t really get rid of most of them. So even after getting lean, those fat cells are still there and can easily store energy again once calories go up.
It almost feels similar to muscle glycogen supercompensation: after a diet, when you start eating more again, the body seems very efficient at refilling and storing energy, including fat storage.

My question is:
Are there any peptides, medications, or methods (besides liposuction or cryotherapy) that can actually help reduce the number of fat cells, not just shrink them?

 

[Mr. Blonde]

Many people here, including me, used to be at a high body fat percentage and lost a significant amount of weight. Some lost more, some less. I’m currently around 12% body fat after a long diet.

One thing that still bothers me is the concept of “fat cell memory.” From what I understand, during weight loss we mainly shrink and empty fat cells, but we don’t really get rid of most of them. So even after getting lean, those fat cells are still there and can easily store energy again once calories go up.
It almost feels similar to muscle glycogen supercompensation: after a diet, when you start eating more again, the body seems very efficient at refilling and storing energy, including fat storage.

My question is:
Are there any peptides, medications, or methods (besides liposuction or cryotherapy) that can actually help reduce the number of fat cells, not just shrink them?

This is a great question. I don't have the answer, but looking forward to other's inputs.

 

[tubby]

Many people here, including me, used to be at a high body fat percentage and lost a significant amount of weight. Some lost more, some less. I’m currently around 12% body fat after a long diet.

One thing that still bothers me is the concept of “fat cell memory.” From what I understand, during weight loss we mainly shrink and empty fat cells, but we don’t really get rid of most of them. So even after getting lean, those fat cells are still there and can easily store energy again once calories go up.
It almost feels similar to muscle glycogen supercompensation: after a diet, when you start eating more again, the body seems very efficient at refilling and storing energy, including fat storage.

My question is:
Are there any peptides, medications, or methods (besides liposuction or cryotherapy) that can actually help reduce the number of fat cells, not just shrink them?

I think this is one of those "be careful what you wish for" situations. If you could guarantee that your weight would stay closer to where it is now, you'd likely be okay. In the event that your waistline were to start increasing again, it's a fine line between obesity and diabetes (with the latter being much more adverse to your health).

If you have a sufficient number of fat cells available to take on blood sugar surges (in addition to the rest of your body doing the same) that can help avoid those surges turning into spikes or extended periods of blood sugar elevations. If you have an insufficient number of fat cells to absorb those surges (at their current size), that's where you get blood sugar spikes initially and diabetes as the situation deteriorates further.

Although obesity is irritating, if the alternative is diabetes, I think I'll accept a little extra pudge. I mean ideally we avoid both entirely, but if for whatever reason we lose the ability to avoid a weight-gain situation, those are ultimately your two options.

For reference, there's a drug called Actos that specifically does the exact opposite of what you're asking for (in order to treat diabetes). It causes new fat cells to form in your body, such that blood sugar levels can normalize at the weight where blood sugar control is deteriorating.

 

[Don]

I think this is one of those "be careful what you wish for" situations. If you could guarantee that your weight would stay closer to where it is now, you'd likely be okay. In the event that your waistline were to start increasing again, it's a fine line between obesity and diabetes (with the latter being much more adverse to your health).

If you have a sufficient number of fat cells available to take on blood sugar surges (in addition to the rest of your body doing the same) that can help avoid those surges turning into spikes or extended periods of blood sugar elevations. If you have an insufficient number of fat cells to absorb those surges (at their current size), that's where you get blood sugar spikes initially and diabetes as the situation deteriorates further.

Although obesity is irritating, if the alternative is diabetes, I think I'll accept a little extra pudge. I mean ideally we avoid both entirely, but if for whatever reason we lose the ability to avoid a weight-gain situation, those are ultimately your two options.

For reference, there's a drug called Actos that specifically does the exact opposite of what you're asking for (in order to treat diabetes). It causes new fat cells to form in your body, such that blood sugar levels can normalize at the weight where blood sugar control is deteriorating.

Interesting point of view. I think you’re mostly right, but I would disagree with the idea that having many fat cells is inherently a good thing, or that having fewer fat cells would automatically increase the risk of diabetes.
There are millions of people who have never been obese, have a relatively low number of fat cells compared to formerly obese individuals, and still maintain normal blood sugar control throughout their lives.

That said, I do understand your point that fat cells are not inherently “bad” and that they serve an important role as a safe storage site for excess energy. The real problem seems to be when fat storage capacity is exceeded and fat starts accumulating in places where it shouldn’t, such as the liver, pancreas, and muscles.

Honestly, I also think many of us who used to be overweight may be overthinking the whole “fat cell memory” topic. In practice, factors like calorie intake (sorry for saying calorie), activity level, training, and long-term habits probably have a much greater impact on staying lean than the exact number of fat cells we have.

 

[RadicalCrimson]

Are there any peptides, medications, or methods (besides liposuction or cryotherapy) that can actually help reduce the number of fat cells, not just shrink them?

Yes, Adipotide kills fat cells.

 

[Cumulus]

There is emerging evidence (for the past fifteen years, especially) regarding adipose tissue modulating our immune systems. Obesity swings things the other way, however. I think there is much to learn on the subject.

As for this supposed "memory" of adipose cells, I believe it. It's incredibly easy to regain weight if you've lost it recently. I'm a big fan of lipo, theoretically. Have I gotten it, yet? No. But from talking to people who have gotten it years ago, it seems it's fairly difficult to gain weight in lipo'd areas back. It's possible, but you really gotta be slammin' those 2 for 5 deals twice a day.

 

[dunhacunha]

Adipotide (FTPP) directly induces apoptosis in the blood vessels that supply fat cells, cutting off blood flow to adipose tissue and effectively starving the fat cells into destruction.

Continuous use were linked to higher serum creatinine levels, indicating potential kidney impairment, though most returned to normal within 28 days after stopping treatment.

If you don't have reliable access to a decent healthcare system or can't afford to run regular kidney function panels (creatinine, BUN, eGFR ), this one is genuinely not worth the risk. You won't know your kidneys are taking a hit until things get serious, and "it was reversible in monkeys" is cold comfort when you're footing a nephrology bill. This isn't a peptide you run blind.

 

[JourneyToPerfection]

Adipotide (FTPP) directly induces apoptosis in the blood vessels that supply fat cells, cutting off blood flow to adipose tissue and effectively starving the fat cells into destruction.

Continuous use were linked to higher serum creatinine levels, indicating potential kidney impairment, though most returned to normal within 28 days after stopping treatment.

If you don't have reliable access to a decent healthcare system or can't afford to run regular kidney function panels (creatinine, BUN, eGFR ), this one is genuinely not worth the risk. You won't know your kidneys are taking a hit until things get serious, and "it was reversible in monkeys" is cold comfort when you're footing a nephrology bill. This isn't a peptide you run blind.

Oh yikes. I was following this thread as I like the idea of killing off some fat cells (and I would have done further research myself) but after a severe kidney infection last year I’ll give it a hard pass! Even with free healthcare, it’s a terrifying feeling having one of your organs start to shut down 😳

 

[lessthanhalf]

As far as I know the only peptides that achieve what you want though via different methods are GLP's, which are really the only drug that I know of that maintains substantial long term weight loss.

There are a couple of unpleasant not common medical conditions that involve fat cell death or functional impairment, one causes patchy total fat cell loss that is not something cosmetically advantageous, and the other one diabetes, as the fat cells cannot take up the excess nutrients as easily as normal.

The shrunken fat cells are not necessarily putting out exactly the same amounts of adapokines or fat cell derived hormones in their smaller post weight loss state, but I think it is safe to say that what is going on metabolically after weight loss is pretty poorly understood. And messing with poorly understood systems could have negative consequences. I think there are fairly good reasons drugs like adipotide were abandoned as drug development targets.

Liposuction sounds safer and better understood, even if some removed weight is regained elsewhere ( which suggests the weight set point process is not really coming from the fat cells themselves )

 

[eidos]

5 amino 1 methylquinolinium

Details: https://pep-pedia.org/peptides/5-amino-1mq

It leads to epigenetic changes in adipocytes (in mice) and could erase their “memory.” https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5826726/

I just finished a 10-day cycle at 5 mg. It eliminates the muscle fatigue caused by diabetes (better than Mots-C and SS-31). Effects within 1 hour and last all day. A bigger boost than a quadruple espresso!

It comes as iodine salt, pretty orange. It's a real mess when I flush the needle, and I've already ruined two shirts. I'm going to make a pen this afternoon.

Since it’s a quaternary ammonium*, which is antimicrobial, I’m going to use sterile water for injection instead of BAC. (* It's the same type of compound as benzalkonium, which is found in disinfectant wipes, or in medical skin disinfectants.)

 

[lastresort]

Many people here, including me, used to be at a high body fat percentage and lost a significant amount of weight. Some lost more, some less. I’m currently around 12% body fat after a long diet.

One thing that still bothers me is the concept of “fat cell memory.” From what I understand, during weight loss we mainly shrink and empty fat cells, but we don’t really get rid of most of them. So even after getting lean, those fat cells are still there and can easily store energy again once calories go up.
It almost feels similar to muscle glycogen supercompensation: after a diet, when you start eating more again, the body seems very efficient at refilling and storing energy, including fat storage.

My question is:
Are there any peptides, medications, or methods (besides liposuction or cryotherapy) that can actually help reduce the number of fat cells, not just shrink them?

Adipotide, but I have only read one person in this forum who says it worked for them.

I did laser liposuction last year. Cost me 12K but totally worth it.

 

[AlexSilver]

Since it’s a quaternary ammonium*, which is antimicrobial, I’m going to use sterile water for injection instead of BAC. (* It's the same type of compound as benzalkonium, which is found in disinfectant wipes, or in medical skin disinfectants.)

I just picked up 2 kits and this is excellent information. Do you have any more awesome tidbits about 5A1MQ?

 

[tubby]

I would disagree with the idea that having many fat cells is inherently a good thing, or that having fewer fat cells would automatically increase the risk of diabetes.
There are millions of people who have never been obese, have a relatively low number of fat cells compared to formerly obese individuals, and still maintain normal blood sugar control throughout their lives.

I mean that's all going to depend on if that person is able to control their weight, since if they don't the very next thing you bring up will happen sooner in a person with fewer fat cells (and an insufficient ability for new fat cells to be produced).

The real problem seems to be when fat storage capacity is exceeded and fat starts accumulating in places where it shouldn’t, such as the liver, pancreas, and muscles.

“fat cell memory” topic

I think "fat cell memory" is an example of the telephone game getting out of hand. One scientist observes that fat people who lose weight are more likely to regain that weight than a skinny person (who was never fat). That gets playfully dubbed "fat cell memory." Someone else sees that and takes it to mean that their fat cells literally have their own memories and it takes on a life of its own! 🤣

In reality there was a complex mix of genetic, environmental, and behavioral factors that caused that person to get fat in the first place. Just because they were able to make changes that led to weight loss doesn't mean that's their new path of least resistance or default state. People are creatures of habit and if the initial conditions return, presumably a similar weight gain result will evolve again. GLPs are fun since as long as one stays on their GLP subscription plan, they represent a change that's fairly easy to maintain and the cumulative result will likely be more than just the shot itself (since many make behavioral changes at the same time too).

Or if you prefer, they're magical fat cell memory amnesia devices that while active keep your fat cells oblivious to their former state, which while not really correct is probably the most fun response you can give to someone who has bought into fat cells having a memory.

 

[eidos]

I just picked up 2 kits and this is excellent information. Do you have any more awesome tidbits about 5A1MQ?

shows interest in treating sarcopenia https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-024-66034-9

There's a Safety Data Sheet on the Sigma website. It says there's no data available for most items. It just says it's not an endocrine disruptor.

Possibly mutagenic.

In short: orange, more muscle, more energy, and a mutant = an orange Hulk after a year /j

__

EDIT:

Adipose tissue retains an epigenetic memory of obesity after weight loss

Adipose tissue retains an epigenetic memory of obesity after weight loss - Nature

Stable epigenetic changes indicate the existence of an obesogenic memory in mouse adipocytes that primes cells for pathological responses in an obesogenic environment and potentially contributes to the problematic ‘yo-yo’ effect often seen with dieting.

www.nature.com

 

[Neptide]

Many people here, including me, used to be at a high body fat percentage and lost a significant amount of weight. Some lost more, some less. I’m currently around 12% body fat after a long diet.

One thing that still bothers me is the concept of “fat cell memory.” From what I understand, during weight loss we mainly shrink and empty fat cells, but we don’t really get rid of most of them. So even after getting lean, those fat cells are still there and can easily store energy again once calories go up.
It almost feels similar to muscle glycogen supercompensation: after a diet, when you start eating more again, the body seems very efficient at refilling and storing energy, including fat storage.

My question is:
Are there any peptides, medications, or methods (besides liposuction or cryotherapy) that can actually help reduce the number of fat cells, not just shrink them?

Lemon Bottle. I have not tried it but have read about it. People are using Lemon Bottle to remove fat cells. It allegedly removes fat cells locally to where it is injected.

 

[CandyCap]

5 amino 1 methylquinolinium

Details: https://pep-pedia.org/peptides/5-amino-1mq

It comes as iodine salt, pretty orange. It's a real mess when I flush the needle, and I've already ruined two shirts. I'm going to make a pen this afternoon.

I am on a cycle of this at the moment.

I want to say that there are 2 versions: Iodide and chloride. They are both orange. The color is not from iodide.
I use the chloride version, as the iodide version can cause thyroid problems at high dosages. Definitely do your research and ask questions prior to purchasing, especially if you have current thyroid issues.

 

[AlexSilver]

I am on a cycle of this at the moment.

I want to say that there are 2 versions: Iodide and chloride. They are both orange. The color is not from iodide.
I use the chloride version, as the iodide version can cause thyroid problems at high dosages. Definitely do your research and ask questions prior to purchasing, especially if you have current thyroid issues.

I’ve been studying this, this morning, and the color is indeed because of the iodide ion. The chloride form comes as a white or off white powder.

 

[CandyCap]

I’ve been studying this, this morning, and the color is indeed because of the iodide ion. The chloride form comes as a white or off white powder.

The chloride forms on the market do not come as white or off white unfortunately. It may be a tad lighter, and not as dark orange...but definitely not white.

 

[AlexSilver]

The chloride forms on the market do not come as white or off white unfortunately. It may be a tad lighter, and not as dark orange...but definitely not white.

You may be correct but, I have seen people in this forum complaining about their 5A1MQ being white and wondering if it was the real thing. I wondered about it but didn’t know/care at the time.

 

[CandyCap]

You may be correct but, I have seen people in this forum complaining about their 5A1MQ being white and wondering if it was the real thing. I wondered about it but didn’t know/care at the time.

If it is white, it is not 5A1MQ. Per AI (which I hate even using), the color comes from the quinoline ring, which absorbs blue light, reflecting back orange. It does not come from iodide.

 

[AlexSilver]

If it is white, it is not 5A1MQ. Per AI (which I hate even using), the color comes from the quinoline ring, which absorbs blue light, reflecting back orange. It does not come from iodide.

Stupid ai just told me it can only be white if it isn’t properly methylated.

 

[BlueDog55]

Not sure this is related but... I have for over 15 years been on a weight loss ride like most it's been a roller coaster. The one thing I have noticed and I have coined it my Fat clock... what I mean is the first time I lost from 405ish down to 360 and kept it like that for about a year then after some time I lost down to 335 what i noticed was if I fell back into my old ways I would gain back up to 360 very fast but then the weight gain would kinda level out/slow down for a while then if I got myself back on track I could get back down to 335 easier. Then after I kept myself at or around 335 for at least a year that became my new "clock" or set point. Same thing would happen I get down to 315ish and mess around and bam back to 335 very fast so on and on. I really believe there is something to this set point and that would be in the same ballpark as fat cell memory. My current clock is 305ish but with the help of Reta I am at 276 and going to try and make this my new setting as I work to get down to 250 and will hope to make that my set point. For reference I am 6'5" and 63yrs old now my 40's were my down fall years sure wish OI could redo them... But

 

[Don]

Not sure this is related but... I have for over 15 years been on a weight loss ride like most it's been a roller coaster. The one thing I have noticed and I have coined it my Fat clock... what I mean is the first time I lost from 405ish down to 360 and kept it like that for about a year then after some time I lost down to 335 what i noticed was if I fell back into my old ways I would gain back up to 360 very fast but then the weight gain would kinda level out/slow down for a while then if I got myself back on track I could get back down to 335 easier. Then after I kept myself at or around 335 for at least a year that became my new "clock" or set point. Same thing would happen I get down to 315ish and mess around and bam back to 335 very fast so on and on. I really believe there is something to this set point and that would be in the same ballpark as fat cell memory. My current clock is 305ish but with the help of Reta I am at 276 and going to try and make this my new setting as I work to get down to 250 and will hope to make that my set point. For reference I am 6'5" and 63yrs old now my 40's were my down fall years sure wish OI could redo them... But

Its real thats the thing. Just because I called it "fat cell memory" doesn't mean the concept is made up.
The term itself may not be scientific, but the underlying idea is supported by research. When people lose a significant amount of weight, fat cells mainly shrink rather than disapear. In adults, fat cell number tends to remain relatively stable, and previous obesity may leave long-lasting biological and even epigenetic changes that can influence future weight regain.
I'm not saying that regaining fat is inevitable, but it's not accurate to dismiss the concept entirely as a myth. There is evidence that adipose tissue retains certain characteristics after obesity, even after substantial weight loss.

As far as I know, there is currently no reliable way to significantly reduce fat cell number other than procedures such as liposuction. Weight loss primarily reduces the size of fat cells, not their number

Interesting paper to this subject, you guys can search it up.
Adipose tissue retains an epigenetic memory of obesity after weight loss" (Nature, 2024).

 

[BlueDog55]

Its real thats the thing. Just because I called it "fat cell memory" doesn't mean the concept is made up.
The term itself may not be scientific, but the underlying idea is supported by research. When people lose a significant amount of weight, fat cells mainly shrink rather than disapear. In adults, fat cell number tends to remain relatively stable, and previous obesity may leave long-lasting biological and even epigenetic changes that can influence future weight regain.
I'm not saying that regaining fat is inevitable, but it's not accurate to dismiss the concept entirely as a myth. There is evidence that adipose tissue retains certain characteristics after obesity, even after substantial weight loss.

As far as I know, there is currently no reliable way to significantly reduce fat cell number other than procedures such as liposuction. Weight loss primarily reduces the size of fat cells, not their number

Interesting paper to this subject, you guys can search it up.
Adipose tissue retains an epigenetic memory of obesity after weight loss" (Nature, 2024).

I feel like maybe after a year at a lower weight I lost some of the fat cells and that might be why I only shoot up to a point then level off. Does that make sense?

 

[Don]

I feel like maybe after a year at a lower weight I lost some of the fat cells and that might be why I only shoot up to a point then level off. Does that make sense?

I honestly don't know, and as far as I'm aware there isn't strong evidence supporting this.
However, your experience does make sense to me. Since you lost around 130 pounds and spent a significant amount of time maintaining those lower weights before moving down again, it's possible that your body gradually adjusted to those new weight ranges over time.

Maybe it's not that you're actually losing a meaningful number of fat cells, but rather that your body is becoming less inclined to defend the higher weight it used to maintain. In other words, your "set point" or settling point may have shifted downward as you spent more time at a lower weight.
Again, that's just my speculation, not something I can back up with strong evidence, but it seems like a more likely explanation than a large reduction in fat cell number