"HCG monotherapy" – I tried it so you didn't have to!

[reta-stacker]

Lol I have, but truth be told I don't think I need it.

I found out it was retrograde ejaculation from masturbating while lying down. How embarassing!

No fuss, no muss.

 

[gusterbuster]

Arguably, most of us don't need a testosterone boost anyway. I am happy with my normal testosterone level, using just reta now. Formerly hypogonadal before losing 50+ pounds

Need and want are two separate things.

My outlook is, life is too short not to be optimized. My levels prior were 650, and man life is just better 900-1200. Life is just better. More assertive and cofindent, although arguably never had an issue and some might prefer me more docile so they aren't challenged, lol. Sex drive, borderline problematic and may or may not ask a few different women to marry me every day. Better recovery, better cardio, and just better outlook on life.

 

[gusterbuster]

250iu 3x a week is generally considered to be maintainence for keeping the testes active.

This is what i use on trt. But likely higher as all COAs I've seen in Grey HCG are like 30 percent over fills.

 

[FartfulCodger]

A little off topic but still kinda on topic...lol!
Do you guys know if Enclomiphene is helpfull when you are already on test?

I think that would create too much testosterone, depending on doses, of course. HCG is the thing that is often prescribed alongside testosterone therapy, because when your body detects too much testosterone, it shuts down its own endogenous production. HCG is the thing that tells your body to keep creating it.

 

[gusterbuster]

Do you guys know if Enclomiphene is helpfull when you are already on test?

The first question should always be, what are you hoping to accomplish?

And I can't think of anything to accomplish, adding Enclomiphene to test

 

[eidos]

It sounds like you would agree that HCG monotherapy is a bust...

I'm too much of a coward to have opinions. /j

 

[jamesprt]

When it comes to fertility and actively trying to conceive, a more intensive HCG protocol may be necessary, despite the hormonal side effects it can cause. However, if the goal is simply to maintain testicular function over the long term, a low dose twice a week is usually sufficient, depending on the HCG concentration. I'm currently taking HCG 5,000 IU, injecting 10 units twice a week.

 

[birdwhacker]

When it comes to fertility and actively trying to conceive, a more intensive HCG protocol may be necessary, despite the hormonal side effects it can cause. However, if the goal is simply to maintain testicular function over the long term, a low dose twice a week is usually sufficient, depending on the HCG concentration. I'm currently taking HCG 5,000 IU, injecting 10 units twice a week.

10 units isn't a dosage lol. We have no idea how much you're taking.

 

[jamesprt]

10 units isn't a dosage lol. We have no idea how much you're taking.

500iu 2x week

 

[Calm Logic]

My outlook is, life is too short not to be optimized.

Of course, not optimal for longevity. Hence the YOLO argument all the time (and trying to manage higher hematocrit or explain it away, and the lack of cardiovascular imaging at Meso). The ideal would be something optimal for lifespan as well, which is more the domain of peptides.

Certainly, long-term supraphysiological testosterone is a known cardiovascular risk at the cellular and structural level. The only question is how much, even with perfect bloodwork.

 

[gusterbuster]

Of course, not optimal for longevity. Hence the YOLO argument all the time (and trying to manage higher hematocrit or explain it away, and the lack of cardiovascular imaging at Meso). The ideal would be something optimal for lifespan as well, which is more the domain of peptides.

Certainly, long-term supraphysiological testosterone is a known cardiovascular risk at the cellular and structural level. The only question is how much, even with perfect bloodwork.

There are the performance optimal and longevity optimal. I aim to be where that ven diagram intersects. Like castration in animals, shows longer life spans. I prefer to be able to split my partner like a log up until the end.

Where you land on the performance/longevity spectrum is for each individual to decide.

 

[birdwhacker]

There are the performance optimal and longevity optimal. I aim to be where that ven diagram intersects. Like castration in animals, shows longer life spans.

Where you land on the performance/longevity spectrum is for each individual to decide.

Well said, wow. I started to say something similar but didn't know how to word it regarding how an individual might prefer to balance risk and quality of life.

 

[Calm Logic]

The problem is partly marketing, with lots of marketing for testosterone and not much else. The whole low-T industry has made everything seem hormone related. As guys get older, endothelial function one way to boost energy, such as by diet, 5 mg daily of Cialis, exercise as a vasodilator, etc. Better blood flow also helps with recovery.

But if you want to be dependent on sourcing controlled substances for decades (rather than on boosting your body's production of testosterone to some degree), knock yourself out.

 

[birdwhacker]

The problem is partly marketing, with lots of marketing for testosterone and not much else. The whole low T industry has made everything seem hormone related. As guys get older, endothelial function one way to boost energy, such as by diet, 5 mg daily of Cialis, exercise as a vasodilator, etc. Better blood flow also helps with recovery.

But if you want to be dependent on controlled substances for decades, knock yourself out.

You might enjoy the "life sausage." Peter Watts ought to be right up your alley.

No Moods, Ads or Cutesy Fucking Icons » The Life Sausage

As far as a problem... I don't know that there is a problem. I haven't tried boosting myself to maximum reference range yet. If I get there and don't feel any different, I suppose we can say it's overhyped.

 

[gusterbuster]

But if you want to be dependent on sourcing controlled substances for decades, knock yourself out.

I dont understand this argument. I have a shit thyroid and will need to take that med daily for the rest of my life. Oh no, a few extra shots a week. A person with adhd is likely dependent on a schedule 2 drug.

Not saying this applies to anyone here, but all the people I've met through my travels, interested in longevity as in maximum life span, are afraid to die because they have an unlived life. Noting noble, like to see their kids graduate and have grandkids. They are full of regrets. Not taking risks. Didn't ask out that girl, didn't go after that promotion. Or fell into a life dictated by parents or society.

 

[birdwhacker]

I dont understand this argument.

There isn't anything to understand because it's an ideaological argument.

 

[gusterbuster]

There isn't anything to understand because it's an ideaological argument.

And to further illustrate how ridiculous the argument is. We are on a glp1 message board. A majority of us will be dependent on a glp1, sourced through the Grey market for the rest of our lives.

 

[Calm Logic]

Black market is very different from grey market.

The issue to me isn't longevity as much as healthspan per se. But they are usually tightly coupled in practice. And avoiding supraphysiological testosterone is one way to ensure healthspan. Many guys cannot resist going from TRT to TRT+. It is a slippery slope, which is part of the reason it is a controlled substance.

 

[birdwhacker]

And to further illustrate how ridiculous the argument is. We are on a glp1 message board. A majority of us will be dependent on a glp1, sourced through the Grey market for the rest of our lives.

Personally I'm looking forward to getting off of the GLP and keeping myself healthy naturally if possible. I'll be happy to use it as needed.

I get where the guy is coming from, and that's a perspective that I absolutely share when it comes to antidepressants, stimulants for ADHD, meds to manage conditions that could be controlled through lifestyle (high cholesterol, depression, ADHD, high blood pressure). But it doesn't really have a place in this discussion.

For one thing, the idea that if you even look at testosterone, you have to be on it for life, that just doesn't seem to be true. You can PCT off at practically any point, especially if you keep your nuts active with HCG. Granted I'm sure the risk of shutdown after 10+ years on is real... But that gives you a lot of time to figure out what you want.

For another thing, testosterone is something that already exists in your body, unlike prozac or adderall. People writing it off strike me as not dissimilar from people who write off vitamins and supplemets because "your body would make what it needs."

Black market is very different from grey market.

Having used both extensively, no, it really isn't, and especially not for schedule 3 and 4 substances.

You can order testosterone to your door with a credit card right now just like anything else. Not to mention restrictions on it will likely become even more lax. Not to mention clinics will happily dose you up if you need to be legal.

You're just as likely to face consequences for ordering grey market peps as black market oils, for that matter.

 

[gusterbuster]

Many guys cannot resist going from TRT to TRT+. It is a slippery slope, which is part of the reason it is a controlled substance

Do you have experience with trt clinics? From all the people I know on trt, if they weren't hypogonadal, their clinic aimed for 900ish and were fine if you landed 1200ish assuming hemocrit, e2, psa, etc were acceptable.

And those ranges arent trt+ levels and usually achieved with doses between 120-180mg test cyp.

If you're talking higher than this, this is strawman argument as I mentioned liking being at 900-1000 over 650.

And if slippery slope, their cruise dose will always be available, legally. I think you're trying real hard to make an argument where one doesn't exit.

 

[Calm Logic]

GLPs are endorsed by the medical community at large. Testosterone for "optimization" is not. You can get compouned oxandrolone legally too with telehealth, which is insane outside of being a burn patient.

 

[gusterbuster]

GLPs are endorsed by the medical community at large. Testosterone for "optimization" is not.

For someone who has logic in your username, you sure love logical fallacies.

 

[gusterbuster]

For someone who has logic in your username, you sure love logical fallacies.

Ok, I went too far here and thats a personal attack. I apologize.

Currently completed midlife crisis and on here frisky before meeting up with my 23yo Latina gf as a 38 year old lol.

 

[BlueDog55]

Black market is very different from grey market.

Please explain the difference, I thought the Gray market was is the same as Black market it's just a way to soften the words for the weak at heart... or it just sounds less scary.

 

[birdwhacker]

GLPs are endorsed by the medical community at large. Testosterone for "optimization" is not. You can get compouned oxandrolone legally too with telehealth, which is insane outside of being a burn patient.

Funny, HRT for menopausal women who have stopped producing estrogen doesn't seem to be endorsed by the medical community at large.

The medical community at large still endorses Adderall for children. That tells you most of what you need to know.

 

[Calm Logic]

Please explain the difference, I thought the Gray market was is the same as Black market it's just a way to soften the words for the weak at heart... or it just sounds less scary.

Grey as in "grey area" legally. For example, except for HGH, peptides are not specifically mentioned in legislation (regarding simple possession):

Feature	Anabolic Steroids	Research Peptides
Legal Classification	Schedule III Controlled Substance	Unapproved / Misbranded Drugs
Federal Law	Controlled Substances Act (CSA)	Federal Food, Drug, & Cosmetic Act (FD&C)
Possession Status	Illegal without a valid prescription	Technically legal to own as "research chemicals" (non-human use)
Criminal Penalties	Potential jail time, fines, and criminal record	Generally civil/regulatory, but seizure of goods is common
FDA Stance	Prohibited for non-medical use	Prohibited for human consumption (misbranded)
Primary Enforcement	DEA, law enforcement (local/federal)	FDA, Customs & Border Protection (CBP)
Vendor Liability	High (trafficking/distribution charges)	High (selling misbranded/unapproved drugs)

 

[Meritocrat]

The war against testosterone is real and ongoing. This place evinces the downstream effects of an increasingly emasculated society. And if "grey" is intended to refer to legal grey area, that is only at the societal level. For individuals, AAS and GLP's are prescribed in various contexts. So they are at times, "legal". Besides, legality is not a judicious metric for the theoretical value of a substance. Jim Crow, segregation, marijuana, cocaine, etc were all "legal" at one time or another.

If we are considering the merits of a substance and attributing value to it, then firstly, supraphysiological amounts of testosterone weren't originally stated. Now, even if we were to account for normal-high amounts leading to eventual excess, condemning men to live emasculated lives with suboptimal testosterone amounts is, in my humble opinion, tyrannical and a nefarious violation. Medically, estrogen to testosterone amount is supposed to be at most around 1:20. With upper range of 54 for estrogen that is over 1000 for testosterone. The average amount in "healthy" men is around 450-500, for "medical" community.

Yet 390-400 is the average today while in the 1950's it was supposedly over 750. At the end of it all, it is easy to say that overdose of testosterone leads to shorter lifespan. A famous king once said before dying, "I would rather live one day as a tiger than a thousand as sheep".

Personally, I don't see 20000 days of living as a disabled, emasculated, person as being superior to living 12000 days as an able-bodied, satisfied, happy man.

P.S:- When it comes to "legal", most people are using GLP's that are not prescribed to them personally. I wouldn't call that legal so any attempted distinction between grey and black in this scenario is moot.

P.P.S:- Considering that hormones literally change the way a person thinks, acts, etc., raising one's testosterone is not just optimal, but mandatory as a man.

 

[Calm Logic]

P.P.S:- Considering that hormones literally change the way a person thinks, acts, etc., raising one's testosterone is not just optimal, but mandatory as a man.

And one can raise testosterone level without exogenous testosterone, including raising free testosterone with oral boron. Boron helps women too, with raising free testosterone.

Ranked: Options for Increasing FREE Testosterone (Men's Version)

Rank	Method / Substance	Primary Mechanism	Why it's Ranked Here	Est. Free T Increase
1	Exogenous Testosterone	Direct Volume / Saturation	The absolute ceiling. Floods the system and saturates SHBG until the remaining T stays bioavailable.	100% – 400%+
2	HCG (Human Chorionic Gonadotropin)	Leydig Cell Stimulation (LH Analog)	Directly mimics Luteinizing Hormone to force the testes to produce testosterone. Highly effective clinical intervention for maintaining testicular function.	50% – 100%+
3	Enclomiphene (Enclo)	Pituitary Stimulation	Massively raises Total T via LH/FSH. Far more potent than any over-the-counter supplement.	50% – 100%
4	Boron (6–10mg)	Natural SHBG Reduction	The king of natural options. The only supplement that surgically targets and lowers SHBG levels.	25% – 35%
5	Resistance Training	Insulin Sensitivity	Heavy compound lifts (squats/deadlifts) improve metabolic health, signaling the liver to lower SHBG.	15% – 25%
6	Sleep (7.5–9 Hours)	Hormonal Pulsatility	The foundation. Poor sleep is a "T-killer." Deep sleep is when your body produces its daily T-supply.	15% – 20%
7	Tongkat Ali (400mg)	HPTA & SHBG Support	An adaptogen that "unsticks" T from SHBG. Best for guys with high SHBG but "normal" Total T.	12% – 20%
8	DHEA (25–50mg)	Downstream Precursor	Adds to the hormone pool. Most effective for men over 45 whose adrenal production has slowed.	10% – 15%
9	ZMA (Zinc/Magnesium)	Enzymatic Support	Zinc is a T-building block; Magnesium binds to SHBG to "block the blocker" from grabbing T.	10% – 15%
10	High Intensity Cardio	Acute Endocrine Spike	Short bursts/sprints trigger a sharp T-surge. Do NOT overdo it, or cortisol will reverse the effect.	5% – 10%
11	Ashwagandha	Cortisol Suppression	Lowers stress hormones. Since cortisol and T have an inverse relationship, this "frees" up your T.	10% – 15%
12	Pregnenolone	Master Precursor	Important for mood and neurosteroids, but T-conversion is unpredictable and often low in men.	2% – 5%

 

[birdwhacker]

And one can raise testosterone level without exogenous testosterone, including raising free testosterone with oral boron.

Oral boron is amazing. It's pretty much the only reason that I'm interested in exogenous test – the early days of correcting my boron deficiency made me much more capable. More energy, less grogginess, more sexual in a good way, more capable at work.

But then life happens and you can't maintain it.

Whatever levels you choose to target with your TRT, those are the levels that you stay at regardless of how you slept or how much junk food/alcohol you got into. I think the appeal is that it's more difficult to get stuck in the "vicious cycle."

Sort of like the "GLP" of being a man. If you decide to use it as a crutch, or abuse it, or find that it's intolerable and continue along that avenue, you'll end up harming your health and ultimately regressing to a pre-therapeutic lifestyle.

 

[Meritocrat]

And one can raise testosterone level without exogenous testosterone, including raising free testosterone with oral boron. Boron helps women too, with raising free testosterone.

Hmmm... theoretically, sure you could elevate it a bit. Let's say you ran the holy grail, hail mary stack of boron, L Carnitine L Tartrate, fenugreek, black ginger, etc. Let's add enclomiphene and HCG on top. Let's leave Kisspeptin and ORG-43902 out of it for now. If the average person spends all that money, suffers through munching all of them, how much would his test increase from 390 or 400? Let's allow for miracles and say a 90% increase. That is still below the maximum amount he could possess, and mind you, for a far cheaper rate with exo Test.
Anyway, let's look at this logically. The premise originally was about raising T-levels to around 1000 or high normal. If that can be accepted as a positive, then everything else about how and when, and why are tangential. Because, if we accept the necessity of testo, then it is a question of what method would be appropriate or desirable?
HCG monotherapy is certainly the oldest, tried-and-tested method. I dont consider it the best. Far from it.