Is 4mg+ really the key?

[Vriende]

What have you noticed since starting Creatine? I have been thinking about starting it myself.

They likely are referring to water weight. The water retention associated with creatine is mostly intracellular, meaning water stays inside the muscle cells and the muscles look fuller and more hydrated.
I take creatine and just built it into my expectations when I started it that what I saw on the scale would slow for a time due to water weight.

 

[woundcarping]

What have you noticed since starting Creatine? I have been thinking about starting it myself.

Perhaps a bit of a “pump” but no feels.


My DEXA before and after being on creatine for just over a month showed .3lb difference. With that, my weight loss trajectory went funkier than expected, so I stopped creatine Wednesday and stacked Sema Thursday. It’s too early for today’s official weigh in, but I’m 5+lb lighter than last Wednesday.

I have another DEXA scheduled next month, it’ll be interesting to see the results.

 

[GLPFrodo]

I’ve seen a lot of back and forth on whether or not 4mg or more is where you truly get the benefits of Retatrutide compared to Trizepitide. To my understanding the argument supports that the Glucogon agonist doesn’t really get activated until you hit the 4mg+ a week. I’ve titrated up from .5mg to 4mg over a course of an couple of months and have been cruising there for about 3 weeks and haven’t really noticed anything different effect wise (Other than the continuous benefits of Reta obviously lol). Can anyone share their own experience?

From what ive found in a couple studies, 4mg is the dose at which the average Glucagon levels over the week are equal to your "native pulse level while fasting". 2mg is half that, and 1mg is half that again. 8mg is not double however, but is an increase.

 

[ultima thule]

Actually I titrated to 4mg last Sunday. And maybe it is just in my mind only, but got the feeling it was a severe boost. Started from 1mg and titrating 1mg every 3 weeks. Didn't feel much difference while increasing the dose before, but 4mg increase made it different. First of all, I have no cravings at all. It is Friday evening, and I ate much less, this week since Sunday. Beforhand I was getting slight cravings around Thursdays, but now not at all. Also was losing approx 1kg per week on the lower doses, this week I lost 1.7kg. Maybe it is coincidence, or a kind of placebo effect, but got a feeling there is something in the 4mg dose. And btw I do not have any crucial side effects since the very beginning on Reta and 4mg dose didn't change it. The only one I could name is a permanent constipation, but not as bad as I couldn't cope it. A lot of water and some fiber during the day helps enough...

 

[Kyli]

It's just my opinion, but I read the study that way that at about 4mg / Week you will start to profit from the Glucagon Receptors. But... And now tbh. with 4mg 1x Week you have a Peak of 7.2mg and about 3.2mg as a average level. If you dose 2x week, you have a lower peak, but in the meantime a higher average dose. And I don't know, if you need this high peak dose to activate the receptors. I heard from many people, that they get tachycardia after the injection. And this is because of the glucagon activation. That's why I don't know, if you actually need the 7mg peak.

Currently I titrated up to 2mg 2x week, and I have currently no idea, if the receptors are triggered and the liver is burning IT's fat.

But IMHO you should not go over 4+ mg as long as possible to be able to titrate up, if you need to. Or combine it with Cargi.

 

[BNLFL]

But IMHO you should not go over 4+ mg as long as possible to be able to titrate up, if you need to. Or combine it with Cargi.

And why's that? I did 6 weeks at 4mg until not much happening. I'm currently on 9mg.

 

[Kyli]

And why's that? I did 6 weeks at 4mg until not much happening. I'm currently on 9mg.

Exactly this is the reason why... Where do you want to go from here? To 18mg? 12mg? People in the studies had severe side effects from higher dosage. Not just nausea but effects on the skin, they had to "fight" with antihistamines.

I think, the better idea is to find out, why "nothing" happened. And what is "nothing". No hunger suppression? Then Cargi might be the was to go. Or even Triz.

If nothing is happening, it might be, that the GLP-1 receptors are over saturated / stressed. And they protect themselves from Reta.

 

[BNLFL]

Exactly this is the reason why... Where do you want to go from here? To 18mg? 12mg? People in the studies had severe side effects from higher dosage. Not just nausea but effects on the skin, they had to "fight" with antihistamines.

My next stop is maintenance. I've never had those any of those side effects.
Are you a doctor?

 

[woundcarping]

Where do you want to go from here? To 18mg? 12mg? People in the studies had severe side effects from higher dosage. Not just nausea but effects on the skin, they had to "fight" with antihistamines…

18mg isn’t special for me.

My allodynia was at much lower doses, minor, and transient… no fighting required.

 

[ilikeshikes]

I’ve seen a lot of back and forth on whether or not 4mg or more is where you truly get the benefits of Retatrutide compared to Trizepitide. To my understanding the argument supports that the Glucogon agonist doesn’t really get activated until you hit the 4mg+ a week. I’ve titrated up from .5mg to 4mg over a course of an couple of months and have been cruising there for about 3 weeks and haven’t really noticed anything different effect wise (Other than the continuous benefits of Reta obviously lol). Can anyone share their own experience?

This video from Dr. Alex Tatum,(an actual MD), does a great job of explaining the dosing of Reta based on the clinical trial findings. Of course, ymmv depending on your body and your goals. I haven’t started yet, but when I do I’m going to ramp up to 8mg over 4-6 months. I have about 80 lbs to lose. Reta dosing

 

[SVT810E]

Exactly this is the reason why... Where do you want to go from here? To 18mg? 12mg? People in the studies had severe side effects from higher dosage. Not just nausea but effects on the skin, they had to "fight" with antihistamines.

If you’re having serious issues with side effects then your dose is too high for you right now and you should strongly reconsider your dose. But lots of people don’t have those issues, and there’s not any good reason not to go up if the drug is well tolerated. Trying to minimize your dose early on is not going to change where you end up plateauing.

 

[Kyli]

If you’re having serious issues with side effects then your dose is too high for you right now and you should strongly reconsider your dose. But lots of people don’t have those issues, and there’s not any good reason not to go up if the drug is well tolerated. Trying to minimize your dose early on is not going to change where you end up plateauing.

🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️
Except for the reasons I mentioned above...

Otherwise there is no reason to increase the dose after arround 4mg / Week.

 

[birdwhacker]

For me, 4mg was too much. I started at 6' 236lb, now down to 200ish at the 15ish week mark.

I had to drop my dose from 2mg every 3 days (4.66mg/wk) to 1.8mg every 4 days (3.2mg/wk).

4mg was just too effective and I couldn't get enough food in.

It seems heavier doses might work best for heavier people

 

[LabRatts]

I’ve seen a lot of back and forth on whether or not 4mg or more is where you truly get the benefits of Retatrutide compared to Trizepitide. To my understanding the argument supports that the Glucogon agonist doesn’t really get activated until you hit the 4mg+ a week. I’ve titrated up from .5mg to 4mg over a course of an couple of months and have been cruising there for about 3 weeks and haven’t really noticed anything different effect wise (Other than the continuous benefits of Reta obviously lol). Can anyone share their own experience?

No it isn’t.

 

[BNLFL]

🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️
Except for the reasons I mentioned above...

Otherwise there is no reason to increase the dose after arround 4mg / Week.

You joined 12 days ago and are now an expert on this subject vs the guys who've been here a while, been on Reta a while and had success with these bigger doses. Trust me, it's nothing at 9mg. I blasted myself and wife with this dose this morning with zero side effects. May I ask how long you've been on Reta, and you age?

 

[SVT810E]

Otherwise there is no reason to increase the dose after arround 4mg / Week.

Presumably people would increase their dose past 4mg/week because they’d like to lose 28% of their bodyweight rather than 19% (on average)?

 

[Kyli]

You joined 12 days ago and are now an expert on this subject vs the guys who've been here a while, been on Reta a while and had success with these bigger doses.

So because I joined "just" 12 Days ago, I can't have an informed opinion?? And "experts" who are pinning whatever they want without knowing the biochemistry behind it, are of course the experts - pathetic!

Well, do whatever you want. I've justified my opinion, why I think it's a bad idea to rush the dose if not needed.

Presumably people would increase their dose past 4mg/week because they’d like to lose 28% of their bodyweight rather than 19% (on average)?

Then you are reading the statistic wrong. The statistic does not say, that you will loose 19% (on average), but in a certain time period. I don't say, that 4mg should be the final maintenance dose. But that you should use the lowest dose, that is still working. Because a lot of people in the Study had severe side effects on higher doses. So the best way is to stay as low as possible, after about 4mg/week is reached.

So you have enough room to titrate up with less possible side effects.

 

[Vriende]

Are you a doctor?

You joined 12 days ago and are now an expert on this subject vs the guys who've been here a while...

Neither of those are particularly compelling criteria to determine a person's ability to provide an informed opinion.
I'm noticing that some of "the guys who've been here a while" have been particularly testy and impatient the past few days and I'm suggesting it is time for some to simmer down a bit and be less provocative. Please.

 

[SVT810E]

Then you are reading the statistic wrong. The statistic does not say, that you will loose 19% (on average), but in a certain time period.

That “certain time period” happens to be the time period when most people lose weight on this class of drugs. We obviously don’t have full details on the reta phase 3 trials yet but if the drug behaves like other GLP-1s we’d expect that the vast majority of trial participants were at a terminal weight loss plateau by the trial end. For example with tirzepatide nearly 90% had plateaued by week 72 and about 50% had plateaued by week 36. It’s reasonable to guess that long-term weight loss will probably look pretty similar to the weight loss seen at the end of these full-length trials because that’s what we’ve seen so far.

I don't say, that 4mg should be the final maintenance dose. But that you should use the lowest dose, that is still working. Because a lot of people in the Study had severe side effects on higher doses. So the best way is to stay as low as possible, after about 4mg/week is reached.

I agree that if you’re struggling with side effects that it makes sense to be cautious with dose increases. But again, lots of people aren’t struggling with side effects. Why should they force themselves to follow a least effective dose strategy designed to mitigate side effects that they don’t have?

 

[BNLFL]

Neither of those are particularly compelling criteria to determine a person's ability to provide an informed opinion.
I'm noticing that some of "the guys who've been here a while" have been particularly testy and impatient the past few days and I'm suggesting it is time for some to simmer down a bit and be less provocative. Please.

Have you noticed some of the advise given by some of the newer guys? It's completely wrong, and they want to argue about it. I think with the popularity of some of these peptides, they're jumping on board here and elsewhere. I've even put a few on Ignore. Yes, I can get a tad uppity at times. I'll see what I can do about that. I see you joined before me.

 

[pharaoh]

I’ve seen a lot of back and forth on whether or not 4mg or more is where you truly get the benefits of Retatrutide compared to Trizepitide. To my understanding the argument supports that the Glucogon agonist doesn’t really get activated until you hit the 4mg+ a week. I’ve titrated up from .5mg to 4mg over a course of an couple of months and have been cruising there for about 3 weeks and haven’t really noticed anything different effect wise (Other than the continuous benefits of Reta obviously lol). Can anyone share their own experience?

I recently got back on Reta. Yes, it is the key.

As I never have side effects I went straight to 8mg (Previously, I did 4mg). This week, 3 days I broke my diet and didn't do cardio. Those 3 days I ate like garbage. I still lost 2 pounds.

Next week I ultra locked in, didn't break diet a single day, did cardio 5 out of 7 days (on top of always doing 5 days of weight training). I lost 4 pounds.

There's a major difference in the Glucagon agonist benefit really working, and this was my first time experiencing it.

 

[Kyli]

That “certain time period” happens to be the time period when most people lose weight on this class of drugs. We obviously don’t have full details on the reta phase 3 trials yet but if the drug behaves like other GLP-1s we’d expect that the vast majority of trial participants were at a terminal weight loss plateau by the trial end.

You can't really compare other GLP-1s to reta. Let me explain why.

First, take a look at the TRIUMPH-1 study. You can see that people were still losing weight at week 104 instead of plateauing. And in my personal opinion, you also can't compare trial patients to the people here.

As you can see from the triz curve, people started regaining weight once they stopped the GLP-1 meds. That tells me one thing: they were using GLP-1 purely as a lifestyle drug. They hadn't changed anything about their lifestyle or eating habits - they were simply in a calorie deficit. That's it.

With reta and grey GLP-1s especially, I see people using the drug as a window of opportunity to actually change their lives -to start doing sports, lifting weights, building muscle, and so on.

Now back to the triz study you quoted. The only thing it really shows is weight loss - not what people lost. And that's the key difference between a number on the scale and actual health, because we don't want to lose muscle mass; we want to get rid of fat.

In the triz study, people lost more weight on the 10 mg dose than on 5 mg simply because their calorie deficit was greater. That's it. Most people - even on reta - struggle to hit their minimum protein intake to slow down muscle loss, since muscle protein gets catabolised for gluconeogenesis.

That's why a dose of around 4 mg is the better choice. This is where you get the most long-term benefit. You can always escalate further, but there's no need to if you don't have to.

And for those who claim they have no side effects: because of the drug's half-life, you can't just say, "Yeah, I took an 8 mg dose and everything was fine." The peak concentration - even at 8 mg - won't hit until after the fourth injection, so about a month later.