Whats the quality of Chinese Tirz compared to Lilly?

[Gr33dyOctopus]

Is there a huge difference? On the comppunding forums they say that Lilly has better ingredients, equipment and facilities that put Chinese tirz to shame.

And tthat the gray we get is basically junk. I argued that compound tirz is all from China too, and even though there's a green list of precursors compounding pharmacies can buy from, not a single one is in the country.

Over on reddit we also saw lilly tirz pens that were made in and shipped from China. So.... how big a difference really is gray market tirz from lilly tirz when it comes down to actual brass tacks?

 

[Nathanologist]

Look… you’ve got brand name cereal, and store brand cereal. Some store brand cereal is actually pretty good and even preferred by the consumer. But it’ll never be the same. Some of it is just absolute 🤮 … I kind figure it’s the same with drugs. It’s all made with the same raw ingredients generally. But the finished product can vary drastically. End of the day if you can make a 💩 the cereal did its job.

 

[MsGizmo]

Is there a huge difference? On the comppunding forums they say that Lilly has better ingredients, equipment and facilities that put Chinese tirz to shame.

And tthat the gray we get is basically junk. I argued that compound tirz is all from China too, and even though there's a green list of precursors compounding pharmacies can buy from, not a single one is in the country.

Over on reddit we also saw lilly tirz pens that were made in and shipped from China. So.... how big a difference really is gray market tirz from lilly tirz when it comes down to actual brass tacks?

There are only 3 differences in my opinion.

• The first one is the overfilling. You just need to keep an eye on it.
• The second difference is that you need to do more prep work. Mixing the BAC water into the powder and then fill either syringes or an injection pen cartridge.
• The third .. money. I spent $1000 to get my first 2 months of Wegovy from the pharmacy. I knew I would burn through my medical savings in about 6 months time. After that I would have to start making budget cuts. I didn't want to do that. So instead I spent about $300 for my first kit of sema and the supplies to mix, store and deliver it. I expect this kit to last for at least a year. It will probably last longer than that to be honest.

 

[lessthanhalf]

If your vial of cheap chinese Tirz contains the correct drug, then there is essentially zero difference.
I have no doubt that the manufacturer formulation is superior in terms of long term peptide stabilty, which it needs to be as it has to have a long shelf life after being mixed with water which is how they sell it. But given that the lyophilised peptides are only mixed with bac water as needed, and used in the next month or so, it really does not matter if the mixture is as stable over months to years after being mixed.
Apart from that, dosage accuracy is not as precise due to under or overfilling but the worst I have seen is 20%, and most are within plus or minus 10%. In practical terms this really makes no difference either unless you are especially sensitive to adverse effects from tiny dose changes.
The biggest risks are of being ripped off by a fake seller or one who gets busted, but even this is usually cheaper than paying for the original version. A loss of a few hundred to a bad seller is still way less than the cost of a one month prescription.
It is not impossible to get a product that has nothing in it or worse has a different peptide or toxic contaminants, it happens but is not common. The only way to be sure this is not going to happen is to get your batch independently tested, before you use it, either yourself or through a group.
Bacteria or endotoxin are possible as well, I have still never come across a case of someone complaining about infections at injection sites, so presumably this is quite rare, and tiny amounts of endotoxin are not likely to be any worse than the amounts that leak through your gut into your blood every day.

 

[CallieKat]

I only did 2 months of pharma but after over 2 years on gray…I’m still skinny. I think that speaks volumes about whether it works or not.

 

[indolent]

It's a specific molecule and some chalky filler.

 

[byefatlicia]

Is there a huge difference?

My rats have only ever had grey. They loveeee it.

 

[cldfront]

It's a specific molecule and some chalky filler.

Indeed. Tirz is tirz.

 

[PopTart]

The first one is the overfilling. You just need to keep an eye on it.

I would also add to that fill “variation” across vials from the same batch.

 

[joearimathea]

There are two major issues:
1) Quality - we all have heard or experienced quality issues that are probably much more likely with gray than brand name. Therefore, I would never perform research without quality third party testing. Even then, still likely more risk.
2) Risk of any Gray market (and this is not the only one)- scammers, shipping issues, crypto, refunding problems. Things you don't have to deal with when you buy from Amazon.
I think each of us must weigh the risks (which are real) and benefits (which is mostly cost).
Even if I never went gray, I have learned more valuable information from this community that I would have ever known otherwise.
That said, If Lily would lower their price or my insurance would cover and it cost me $100/month let me tell you that I will be done with gray.

 

[Mustafa]

Over the course of May 2023 to February 2024 I lost more than 50 pounds, from 195 to 140, without any other lifestyle changes. Last night I checked and I was 143. I've tried Chinese sema, Chinese cagri, Chinese survo, and a few other peps, so it definitely works.

This week I decided to finally go to the gym. Without having first lost the weight, I don't think I would have had the confidence to step foot in the gym.

 

[joseblo]

Most of the compounders buy from China and recon anyway. If they're spouting off BS, I lose even more trust in them.

There are some differences that the others have mentioned (testing, constant dose, purity, B12 etc) and there are others like the "free" autopen, more preservatives for room temp shipping, and a freebase form rather than acetate that the grey market provides. Manufacturing for LL is likely significantly different just due to scale, and of course there's not a lyophilization and recon steps.

Does it work the same? If it's pure and has the right concentration, Yep!

 

[MsGizmo]

I would also add to that fill “variation” across vials from the same batch.

Yeah. Honestly, though I don't think its all that serious. I mean are doctors adjusting meds based on our weight? Most of the time they don't. They just give us standardized amount and for most things its good enough.

I personally think that GLP1s are the same. Like if my 10mg sema vial was really a 12mg vial and my target dose was 0.5mg .. is it really that big of a deal if I end up having 0.6mg?
(this is what really happened with my first doses of grey)

 

[Foggy-Hollow]

Is there a huge difference? On the comppunding forums they say that Lilly has better ingredients, equipment and facilities that put Chinese tirz to shame.

Look for third party testing.

It’s all the same molecule, like ibuprofen is ibuprofen . Tirz is tirz. Advil brand may put it in a nicer bottle. Lilly has it prepackaged in a pen. Lilly direct will tell you vials are one use only BUT their directions had to go through legal department. ( r/ CPAP has proven to me their legal department wasn’t wrong for the average American. )

Third party testing is the only way I trust grey personally.

 

[Gr33dyOctopus]

Look for third party testing.

It’s all the same molecule, like ibuprofen is ibuprofen . Tirz is tirz. Advil brand may put it in a nicer bottle. Lilly has it prepackaged in a pen. Lilly direct will tell you vials are one use only BUT their directions had to go through legal department. ( r/ CPAP has proven to me their legal department wasn’t wrong for the average American. )

Third party testing is the only way I trust grey personally.

Yea im about third party testing too. Otherwise just no way. It could be anything. It could be anything anyway. But 3rd party tests offer at least a veneer of something to believe in lol

 

[YoYoFat]

Look… you’ve got brand name cereal, and store brand cereal. Some store brand cereal is actually pretty good and even preferred by the consumer. But it’ll never be the same. Some of it is just absolute 🤮 … I kind figure it’s the same with drugs. It’s all made with the same raw ingredients generally. But the finished product can vary drastically. End of the day if you can make a 💩 the cereal did its job.

More like Kirkland Signature French Vodka vs. Grey Goose.

 

[Gr33dyOctopus]

Look for third party testing.

It’s all the same molecule, like ibuprofen is ibuprofen . Tirz is tirz. Advil brand may put it in a nicer bottle. Lilly has it prepackaged in a pen. Lilly direct will tell you vials are one use only BUT their directions had to go through legal department. ( r/ CPAP has proven to me their legal department wasn’t wrong for the average American. )

Third party testing is the only way I trust grey personally.

Yea im about third party testing too. Otherwise just no way. It could be anything. It could be anything anyway. But 3rd party tests offer at least a veneer of something

 

[Nathanologist]

There is an interesting post on peppys that covers the finer points of the science of this stuff. There’s more than just the API in the vial, and it all has a role. Formulation is more complicated than most of us will ever wrap our heads around.

 

[Foggy-Hollow]

There is an interesting post on peppys that covers the finer points of the science of this stuff. There’s more than just the API in the vial, and it all has a role. Formulation is more complicated than most of us will ever wrap our heads around.

Chemistry is a subject I “got through” in college and biochem is a whole other world. Maybe it would be easier now that I have something real-world to connect to & motivate learning.

Maybe I was too flippant in my post? Does the average grey user need more? I don’t know what I don’t know. About the time I seem to have a reasonable handle on gray the rabbit hole goes deeper. 🙂

 

[Nathanologist]

Chemistry is a subject I “got through” in college and biochem is a whole other world. Maybe it would be easier now that I have something real-world to connect to & motivate learning.

Maybe I was too flippant in my post? Does the average grey user need more? I don’t know what I don’t know. About the time I seem to have a reasonable handle on gray the rabbit hole goes deeper. 🙂

I didn’t think you were flippant at all. Hopefully you didn’t take my comment as anything other than further engagement.

The peppys post blew my brain up. The guys discussing it must have phds or something.

But it did open my mind to things like binders, buffers, filers and the lyophilizing process can all affect the finished product. I’m sure some of it is fluff and marketing, but some of it is like… EL needs to satisfy the regulators, and deliver a durable product that can last through shipping and storage in a reconstituted state. Grey vendors don’t really care about that- shipped as powder and store properly by us it goes through a lot less rough treatment than the commercial product. At least that’s what my smooth brain is slipping on.

 

[Foggy-Hollow]

I didn’t think you were flippant at all. Hopefully you didn’t take my comment as anything other than further engagement.

The peppys post blew my brain up. The guys discussing it must have phds or something.

I wasn’t sure 🙃 All is well. I look forward to post at Peppy’s.

Yes, there’s a lot that gray circumvents. Makes sense that a finished product that must meet regulation needs more details carefully handled than “just” a peptide being shipped.

Ah the wormhole opens.

 

[Labcat]

Most of the compounders buy from China and recon anyway. If they're spouting off BS, I lose even more trust in them.

There are some differences that the others have mentioned (testing, constant dose, purity, B12 etc) and there are others like the "free" autopen, more preservatives for room temp shipping, and a freebase form rather than acetate that the grey market provides. Manufacturing for LL is likely significantly different just due to scale, and of course there's not a lyophilization and recon steps.

Does it work the same? If it's pure and has the right concentration, Yep!

I came here looking for exactly something like this comment. @joseblo How is it that we know that the counterion of the form we are receiving is acetate?
Do we know how the synthesis is purportedly done? Ie, Is it still the original solid phase synthesis using TFA then ion exchange to sub in acetate, or neutralize with NaOH and leave Na… or the hybrid solid/liqiid phase (that I known nothing about other than those words?)
I’m not actually contesting that gray Tirz works for weight, and that the salt in the correct pH solution dissociates to yield the base, but I’m wondering if we’re always receiving the base with the same counter ion or other non-peptide production molecules that might end up in the mix, yet not be visible in HPLC-mass spec purity testing. (Assuming janoshik and the like use HPLC mass spec)
Looking for someone who has looked into this to help me understand, please 🙂 I think this is very relevant to @Gr33dyOctopus’ question. Because this could make the soup that we recon a different compound. I am very interested in this because I’m in glps primarily for the less publicized benefits. Also maybe if our subcutaneous pH is not the appropriate pH to free the base, maybe it’s better to buffer the recon…

Most of the compounders buy from China and recon anyway. If they're spouting off BS, I lose even more trust in them.

There are some differences that the others have mentioned (testing, constant dose, purity, B12 etc) and there are others like the "free" autopen, more preservatives for room temp shipping, and a freebase form rather than acetate that the grey market provides. Manufacturing for LL is likely significantly different just due to scale, and of course there's not a lyophilization and recon steps.

Does it work the same? If it's pure and has the right concentration, Yep!

 

[Labcat]

There is an interesting post on peppys that covers the finer points of the science of this stuff. There’s more than just the API in the vial, and it all has a role. Formulation is more complicated than most of us will ever wrap our heads around.

Do those science guys say in the end what difference it makes, and if we can even figure out what’s being sold?
Also imma going to see what peppy’s is, any tips how to find that post you’re referring to?

 

[joseblo]

I came here looking for exactly something like this comment. @joseblo How is it that we know that the counterion of the form we are receiving is acetate?
Do we know how the synthesis is purportedly done? Ie, Is it still the original solid phase synthesis using TFA then ion exchange to sub in acetate, or neutralize with NaOH and leave Na… or the hybrid solid/liqiid phase (that I known nothing about other than those words?)
I’m not actually contesting that gray Tirz works for weight, and that the salt in the correct pH solution dissociates to yield the base, but I’m wondering if we’re always receiving the base with the same counter ion or other non-peptide production molecules that might end up in the mix, yet not be visible in HPLC-mass spec purity testing. (Assuming janoshik and the like use HPLC mass spec)
Looking for someone who has looked into this to help me understand, please 🙂 I think this is very relevant to @Gr33dyOctopus’ question. Because this could make the soup that we recon a different compound. I am very interested in this because I’m in glps primarily for the less publicized benefits. Also maybe if our subcutaneous pH is not the appropriate pH to free the base, maybe it’s better to buffer the recon…

I'm not that kind of chemist, but there are posts other places where people with more knowledge than I suggest that the for the scales and equipment that is available, Solid Phase Synthesis remains the most cost effective method at small /med scales. It is possible to test for counter ion among a giant list of possible contaminants and it's been done. Things like this along with degradation and multi-peptide interactions are studied by the community. There are more tests than just HPLC-MS in use, that just happens to be the most common and convenient.

My take from a manufacturing standpoint is that although there are screw ups that can be made in raw peptides (it looks like some Survo with wrong/no counter ion recently was), it's rare for the majors to do that (note that it doesn't recon correctly and was caught immediately) and they lose money and face on it. The bigger more common mistakes (wrong peptide, over/under mass, bad lyo) are done by the little guys, because they aren't pros and have to do a zillion different things. The good news with testing the way it is that most of these folks (not TikTok) get busted and lose quickly or have to change names regularly. Of course, you could just get the wrong product if you don't use the popular well tested vendors, or get rug-pulled even if you do.

Look for the most likely mistakes. You're more likely to find your keys next to your car or bar stool, rather than under the streetlight. With their larger scale, compounders could provide better testing and sterility even for Grey when they expected long term profits, high margins, and worried about audits. Now they just have experience and facilities, but frankly less motivation with pharma litigation as their biggest risk. Pharma has a whole other set of risks and rewards, but the combination of experience, facilities, scale, and incentives means they probably won't screw up the basics (they'll get clever and bean counters will try to increase profits and marketing will push for some crazy complicated thing that will blow up).

edited for spelling/grammar

 

[keangkong]

Is there a huge difference? On the comppunding forums they say that Lilly has better ingredients, equipment and facilities that put Chinese tirz to shame.

And tthat the gray we get is basically junk. I argued that compound tirz is all from China too, and even though there's a green list of precursors compounding pharmacies can buy from, not a single one is in the country.

Over on reddit we also saw lilly tirz pens that were made in and shipped from China. So.... how big a difference really is gray market tirz from lilly tirz when it comes down to actual brass tacks?

My own experience, having taken brand name tirzepatide many times along with Chinese tirzepatide many times is that there is no noticeable difference. My own experience seems to be the most common of those who have tried both, based upon the forums that I have read. I'm confident that in terms of product uniformity and in terms of being sanitary, the stuff from Eli Lilly is far better than the gray stuff. If anyone any expects that the Chinese factories are models of sanitariness, you are likely mistaken. The FDA approved factories in China that the compounded pharmacies are supposed to use may be more sanitary. I am only willing to use gray stuff because lyophilized peptides injected subcutaneously pose little risk even when made under less than ideal conditions.

 

[keangkong]

Is there a huge difference? On the comppunding forums they say that Lilly has better ingredients, equipment and facilities that put Chinese tirz to shame.

And tthat the gray we get is basically junk. I argued that compound tirz is all from China too, and even though there's a green list of precursors compounding pharmacies can buy from, not a single one is in the country.

Over on reddit we also saw lilly tirz pens that were made in and shipped from China. So.... how big a difference really is gray market tirz from lilly tirz when it comes down to actual brass tacks?

Some of the compounding pharmacies turned out to be just buying unapproved stuff from China.

 

[keangkong]

Is there a huge difference? On the comppunding forums they say that Lilly has better ingredients, equipment and facilities that put Chinese tirz to shame.

And tthat the gray we get is basically junk. I argued that compound tirz is all from China too, and even though there's a green list of precursors compounding pharmacies can buy from, not a single one is in the country.

Over on reddit we also saw lilly tirz pens that were made in and shipped from China. So.... how big a difference really is gray market tirz from lilly tirz when it comes down to actual brass tacks?

I'll mention one advantage brand name has over grey at least if you use the pen: It's almost impossibly to get the dosing wrong.

Now here is an advantage from grey that you won't get from the pens: You control the dose. You can take it more than once per week in order to keep the amount in your body more stable. You can also decide to raise or lower the dose in increments small than 2.5 mg per week.

 

[Labcat]

Some of the compounding pharmacies turned out to be just buying unapproved stuff from China.

Ugh. I saw a summary of an fda 483 from a big 503b saying they weren’t buying from an approved fda bulk supplier (this was before the tirz is no longer in shortage announcement mar ‘25.)

 

[Labcat]

I'm not that kind of chemist, but there are posts other places where people with more knowledge than I suggest that the for the scales and equipment that is available, Solid Phase Synthesis remains the most cost effective method at small /med scales. It is possible to test for counter ion among a giant list of possible contaminants and it's been done. Things like this along with degradation and multi-peptide interactions are studied by the community. There are more tests than just HPLC-MS in use, that just happens to be the most common and convenient.

My take from a manufacturing standpoint is that although there are screw ups that can be made in raw peptides (it looks like some Servo with wrong/no counter ion recently was), it's rare for the majors to do that (note that it doesn't recon correctly and caught immediately) and they lose money and face on it. The bigger more common mistakes (wrong peptide, over/under mass, bad lyo) are done by the little guys, because they aren't pros and have to do a zillion different things. The good news with testing the way it is that most of these folks (not TikTok) get busted and lose quickly or have to change names regularly. Of course, you could just get the wrong product if you don't use the popular well tested vendors, or get rug-pulled even if you do.

Look for the most likely mistakes. You're more likely to find your keys next to your car or bar stool, rather than under the streetlight. With their larger scale, compounders could provide better testing and sterility even for Grey when they expected long term profits, high margins, and worried about audits. Now they just have experience and facilities, but frankly less motivation with pharma litigation as their biggest risk. Pharma has a whole other set of risks and rewards, but the combination of experience, facilities, scale, and incentives means they probably won't screw up the basics (they'll get clever and bean counters will try to increase profits and marketing will push for some crazy complicated thing that will blow up).

Well I’m not a chemist at all, alas, so I think you’re still one up on me. That makes sense that things are testable, and maybe we don’t test because it’s been ok so far.

It seems like the TFA counter ion in research grade solid phase synthesis tirz might be a particular vulnerable point where it might be expected that for research grade you’d have to clean it yourself, so someone reselling it to us might not finish cleaning it by mistake even.

I was curious how sure you were that acetate is what we’re getting?

I saw this interesting article about TFA being a forever chemical that could have liver and reproductive consequences. I’m older but I bet most of you have some expectation of long life and reproduction ahead of you.

https://chemtrust.org/tfa-everywhere-and-forever-faq/

Maybe we’re already at the best we’re likely to be at, with a community to do some group testing. An unrecognized golden age before worse things start happening to the supply due to market forces.

 

[Sasquatch]

This is a very informative thread.
But the whole time I'm reading, I'm thinking, you know there's an exceptable amount of rat crap in your oatmeal.