I'm going to shoot for losing 100 pounds in 6 months

Just keep in mind that Collagen is not a complete protein and shouldn't be counted towards your daily goal.
Is missing essentially one amino acid, so not "complete" and obviously cannot be your primary protein source. As can be said for all protein powders. But saying it shouldn't be COUNTED is false. Vegetarians eat incomplete protein sources exclusively and have to cobble together those that complement and complete each other. Obviously those are "counted" in their overall protein intake.
 
Is missing essentially one amino acid, so not "complete" and obviously cannot be your primary protein source. As can be said for all protein powders. But saying it shouldn't be COUNTED is false. Vegetarians eat incomplete protein sources exclusively and have to cobble together those that complement and complete each other. Obviously those are "counted" in their overall protein intake.
Not sure why you're quoting "complete" like it's a made up definition. Collagen is missing an essential amino acid, therefor it's not complete.

As for wether you count it or not is up to you. But the advice for daily protein intake is based on the premise that it is a complete protein.

And Vegetarians have lots of options of complete protein. vegans have a lot less but still a few. There is a reason they have a harder time building muscle.
 
Not sure why you're quoting "complete" like it's a made up definition. Collagen is missing an essential amino acid, therefor it's not complete.

As for wether you count it or not is up to you. But the advice for daily protein intake is based on the premise that it is a complete protein.

And Vegetarians have lots of options of complete protein. vegans have a lot less but still a few. There is a reason they have a harder time building muscle.
I don't think complete is a made up definition. I'm not a neophyte to nutrition, as I had to study it extensively to do private chef work for clients on specialized diets.
If I'm mixing the collagan into yoghurt, or other dairy, or other sources of tryptophan, I am making up the difference of the missing amino acid. Not every veg or vegan eats soy or dairy. Therefore in some cases aminos need to be cobbled together, and it most definitely can be counted in a daily protein intake count.
 
StonePny is spot on. If I have 60g of protein in my fair life bottles alongside 20g of collagen, I'm going to be able to use the majority (and probably all) of that collagen for MPS and other use cases for "complete" protein. It's not like complete protein sources have the exact same amino acid ratios to begin with, and you certainly don't need those ratios to be 1:1.
 
i'm trying for very low calories and almost none on a few days a week. so the ones I do eat have to be very pleasing to me. protein powder and such sucks. I want to eat steak, fish, shrimp, sashimi and my very favorite foods. I've always been a big protein eater anyway so i'm going to continue on that path. these people eating all the veggies and stuff are getting a lot of pesticides that's destroying their bodies.

talk all you want about muscle loss. fasting is one of the most excellent things you can do for your body. it gets rid of the trash cells so you can rebuild. they did many studys on mice with restricted calories and they lived up to 50% longer. so I won't have enough brawn to dig ditches and chop and haul wood. I'm ok with that.

I spent a number of years "lifting" its been my experience that you don't see much of any muscle gain unless you eat like a pig and get fat. I played that game and just ended up getting fat. I know you all are going to come back with a lot of blah blah blah but my mind is made up on the subject.
 
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i'm trying for very low calories and almost none on a few days a week. so the ones I do eat have to be very pleasing to me. protein powder and such sucks. I want to eat steak, fish, shrimp, sashimi and my very favorite foods. I've always been a big protein eater anyway so i'm going to continue on that path. these people eating all the veggies and stuff are getting a lot of pesticides that's destroying their bodies.

talk all you want about muscle loss. fasting is one of the most excellent things you can do for your body. it gets rid of the trash cells so you can rebuild. they did many studys on mice with restricted calories and they lived up to 50% longer. so I won't have enough brawn to dig ditches and chop and haul wood. I'm ok with that.

I spent a number of years "lifting" its been my experience that you don't see much of any muscle gain unless you eat like a pig and get fat. I played that game and just ended up getting fat. I know you all are going to come back with a lot of blah blah blah but my mind is made up on the subject.
Bulking certainly makes building muscle easier and more effective, but plenty of people do fairly lean bulks these days, or even go for the slower recomp option. The latter isn't really viable for people wanting to add significant strength or muscle mass just because of how much slower it is, but it does work up until pretty significant high levels of musculature.

Not even trying to convince you, just for anyone else that might be reading.
 
Bulking certainly makes building muscle easier and more effective, but plenty of people do fairly lean bulks these days, or even go for the slower recomp option. The latter isn't really viable for people wanting to add significant strength or muscle mass just because of how much slower it is, but it does work up until pretty significant high levels of musculature.

Not even trying to convince you, just for anyone else that might be reading.
I thought about taking the route of transitioning to building muscle and losing the last 15-20lbs at a stage just prior to goal to allow the mass to potentially make adding muscle easier, but decided that in order to get the gains on face and visceral fat loss it would be better to cut down to below goal and then try and add.

I am sure it is not as fast, but I am ok with taking some time now that I can move in my body so much easier after dropping 65lbs. I know I could have avoided some muscle loss the other way but I had an inordinate amount of fat around my belly (likely visceral intense) and face.

I was more focused on macros to stay healthy so when i did enter lean stages i would have strength, energy, etc to push the exercise. I measure protein, calorie, and movement daily and ensure i have plenty of fiber and nutrients from meals when possible and with supplements.

Do you believe this to be a reasonable plan?
 
I thought about taking the route of transitioning to building muscle and losing the last 15-20lbs at a stage just prior to goal to allow the mass to potentially make adding muscle easier, but decided that in order to get the gains on face and visceral fat loss it would be better to cut down to below goal and then try and add.
If you were so inclined, you could bulk with the weight, then cut with a 6-8 week cycle of Winstrol. It will preserve your muscle, remove that little bit of fat and dry you out nice.
 
i'm trying for very low calories and almost none on a few days a week. so the ones I do eat have to be very pleasing to me. protein powder and such sucks. I want to eat steak, fish, shrimp, sashimi and my very favorite foods. I've always been a big protein eater anyway so i'm going to continue on that path. these people eating all the veggies and stuff are getting a lot of pesticides that's destroying their bodies.

talk all you want about muscle loss. fasting is one of the most excellent things you can do for your body. it gets rid of the trash cells so you can rebuild. they did many studys on mice with restricted calories and they lived up to 50% longer. so I won't have enough brawn to dig ditches and chop and haul wood. I'm ok with that.

I spent a number of years "lifting" its been my experience that you don't see much of any muscle gain unless you eat like a pig and get fat. I played that game and just ended up getting fat. I know you all are going to come back with a lot of blah blah blah but my mind is made up on the subject.
I totally agree-- I think eating quality proteins is much better than relying on powders or drinks. Fasting is hugely beneficial, and the idea that your body will cannibalize muscle ignores the intelligence of our bodies, and the reason we store fat (quick energy during famine). If you have extra fat, that's what your body's going to use first (after sugars). It's harder to break down and metabolize muscle than fat.
Are you doing actual fasting, as in no food/calories to activate autophagy?
 
If you were so inclined, you could bulk with the weight, then cut with a 6-8 week cycle of Winstrol. It will preserve your muscle, remove that little bit of fat and dry you out nice.
Maybe it's just me? But when the wild-childs like @AndyPanda (aka the guy who does his own iv's!) mention something, I kind of want to try it. Even though I'm a girl and it scares me a little.
*edit--just looked up Winstrol, probably not for me
 
Maybe it's just me? But when the wild-childs like @AndyPanda (aka the guy who does his own iv's!) mention something, I kind of want to try it. Even though I'm a girl and it scares me a little.
*edit--just looked up Winstrol, probably not for me
lol..
He actually seems quite conservative on many things, and he mentioned combat medic experience so that helps with the IV.

As for Winstrol, that is another can of worms I am not ready to open either but I love the info.
 
I experimented with winstrol and conservatively split a 25mg into about 6 pieces and took 2 pieces a day. after a day or 2 my forehead started to feel warm and it felt like a had a constant low grade headache.
 
Maybe it's just me? But when the wild-childs like @AndyPanda (aka the guy who does his own iv's!) mention something, I kind of want to try it. Even though I'm a girl and it scares me a little.
*edit--just looked up Winstrol, probably not for me
Anavar is way better for women. It’s oral and extremely mild. This isn’t that kind of forum, but MESORx is a good source for more details.
 
I experimented with winstrol and conservatively split a 25mg into about 6 pieces and took 2 pieces a day. after a day or 2 my forehead started to feel warm and it felt like a had a constant low grade headache.
I wouldn't fuck with orals as a man without a testosterone base in general - you don't want to suppress your natural test production, which all the orals will do, and not have exogenous replacements for it.
 
I thought about taking the route of transitioning to building muscle and losing the last 15-20lbs at a stage just prior to goal to allow the mass to potentially make adding muscle easier, but decided that in order to get the gains on face and visceral fat loss it would be better to cut down to below goal and then try and add.

I am sure it is not as fast, but I am ok with taking some time now that I can move in my body so much easier after dropping 65lbs. I know I could have avoided some muscle loss the other way but I had an inordinate amount of fat around my belly (likely visceral intense) and face.

I was more focused on macros to stay healthy so when i did enter lean stages i would have strength, energy, etc to push the exercise. I measure protein, calorie, and movement daily and ensure i have plenty of fiber and nutrients from meals when possible and with supplements.

Do you believe this to be a reasonable plan?
I would suggest everyone do at least some basic resistance training if they are at all physically capable of doing so - preserving muscle mass is just going to be basically universally positive for your health, increase the speed of your fat loss, etc.

I wouldn't specifically keep myself at a certain weight because I thought it would let me build more muscle, though - not when starting overweight or obese. I would sacrifice a bit of speed in weight loss for making sure I hit my macro targets, though. That's one of the reasons I swapped to reta from tirz - I couldn't eat enough to hit my macros on tirz. My fat loss slowed a bit when I made the swap, but my lean body mass growth significantly increased.

I think this is reasonable, but yeah, I'd start exercising basically as soon as possible. I did in the first 20ish lb dropped and am glad I did.
 
The casualness with which some people recommend others to use drugs that even used smartly have known negative effects on your health... never ceases to amaze me.

No one should be taking any anabolics without extensive amounts of research and deep consideration of the tradeoffs.
 
The casualness with which some people recommend others to use drugs that even used smartly have known negative effects on your health... never ceases to amaze me.

No one should be taking any anabolics without extensive amounts of research and deep consideration of the tradeoffs.
This is not a very accurate assessment. Acetaminophen is worse for your liver than most oral AASs. You take 25 Tylenol or Aspirin and you will be in the hospital fighting for your life. You take 25 Anavar and you will just get a sick pump.

Everything carries risks. I would say that for someone who is 26 years old, they don’t need Test or anything like that, but you can mitigate a lot if you supplement correctly. To be clear I am not advocating someone blasting Tren, Test and popping an oral AAS.

None of this stuff is as unhealthy as being obese. I think most of us here are on the right track although our paths may be different.
 
The casualness with which some people recommend others to use drugs that even used smartly have known negative effects on your health... never ceases to amaze me.

No one should be taking any anabolics without extensive amounts of research and deep consideration of the tradeoffs.
I'm definitely coming across a bit more blasé about this in discussion now than I would be if talking to someone contemplating going on AAS, since I know the people involved are just going to do whatever no matter what you tell them. (And trying to caution them that an oral only cycle is dumb because it can shut down your hpta and without exogenous test you're going to tank test, estrogen, dht, etc., and cause all sorts of additional issues.)

But yes, +1, in general, there are a huge variety of risks you have to consider when thinking about taking steroids, particularly if you are a woman or a man going over the physiological range. For men even if you avoid all of the general health risks around damage to your liver, kidneys, heart, arteries, brain, etc., each time you go on exogenous hormones you are risking significantly diminishing your own natural testosterone production for the rest of your life and signing yourself up for needing TRT just to get back to a physiological level. For women, just go look at what non-bikini IFBB pro women look like - it's what they want, and good for them, but the virilization is very noticeable, and something that can end up happening if you don't really understand what you're doing.

For me, TRT was necessary regardless, and I am comfortable enough with the risks and steps I have and can take to mitigate them that blasting is in my future. I would not recommend anyone do it, though - someone who thinks it is right for them will already have been contemplating it, and then they need to go put in significant research themselves to figure out how to do it as safely as possible - and they need to understand that 'safely as possible' is a relative term here and not an absolute one.
 
This is not a very accurate assessment. Acetaminophen is worse for your liver than most oral AASs. You take 25 Tylenol or Aspirin and you will be in the hospital fighting for your life. You take 25 Anavar and you will just get a sick pump.

Everything carries risks. I would say that for someone who is 26 years old, they don’t need Test or anything like that, but you can mitigate a lot if you supplement correctly. To be clear I am not advocating someone blasting Tren, Test and popping an oral AAS.

None of this stuff is as unhealthy as being obese. I think most of us here are on the right track although our paths may be different.
Quite frankly, you are incorrect here and in an explicitly dangerous way.

Anavar is one of the most liver friendly orals (but will have significant impact on your lipids), and the rest are significantly worse for your liver than acetaminophen. Even IFBB pros keep oral cycles short compared to injectables for a reason. People shouldn't take acetaminophen daily for years on end, but many do, meanwhile someone taking superdrol daily will cook their liver long before someone on acetaminophen does.

But your liver is not the only risk with going on cycle. Lipids, blood pressure, left ventricular hypertrophy, clotting, kidney damage, neurological damage, etc. are all possible outcomes from AAS.

And you talk about not taking test but instead just popping orals... but when you shut down your hpta and no longer have endogenous test production, not only are you now likely at a lower overall anabolic/androgenic load in your body, which is counterproductive, but you are now no longer converting test into estrogen, dht, etc. Your body needs these things - not only is important for mood, energy, etc., but also their own neuroprotective and cardioprotective factors. Crashing your estrogen will make you miserable and increase the damage being done to your heart and brain from other sources. And every time you shut it down, you run the risk of it not starting back up at full capacity. Someone that was high in the physiological range might end up permanently hypogonadal.

Can AAS be done in a manner that helps minimize a lot (but not all, and not completely mitigate) of these risks and is likely safer than being obese? Yes. Can AAS easily be done in a manner that is significantly and acutely way worse for you than being obese? Yes. People who don't understand what they're doing even if they are already at a healthy body composition can send themselves into a hypertensive crisis and die. The risks for all of the negatives from AAS are also greatly increased when overweight - there's a reason that despite a cupboard of compounds that will help me read my musculature goals quicker being within arm's reach, I am not injecting any of them besides physiological levels of testosterone and enough nandrolone to get me joint relief - because I am heavy enough that doing so would significantly increase the chances of doing lasting harm to my body.
 
M
Quite frankly, you are incorrect here and in an explicitly dangerous way.

Anavar is one of the most liver friendly orals (but will have significant impact on your lipids), and the rest are significantly worse for your liver than acetaminophen. Even IFBB pros keep oral cycles short compared to injectables for a reason. People shouldn't take acetaminophen daily for years on end, but many do, meanwhile someone taking superdrol daily will cook their liver long before someone on acetaminophen does.

But your liver is not the only risk with going on cycle. Lipids, blood pressure, left ventricular hypertrophy, clotting, kidney damage, neurological damage, etc. are all possible outcomes from AAS.

And you talk about not taking test but instead just popping orals... but when you shut down your hpta and no longer have endogenous test production, not only are you now likely at a lower overall anabolic/androgenic load in your body, which is counterproductive, but you are now no longer converting test into estrogen, dht, etc. Your body needs these things - not only is important for mood, energy, etc., but also their own neuroprotective and cardioprotective factors. Crashing your estrogen will make you miserable and increase the damage being done to your heart and brain from other sources. And every time you shut it down, you run the risk of it not starting back up at full capacity. Someone that was high in the physiological range might end up permanently hypogonadal.

Can AAS be done in a manner that helps minimize a lot (but not all, and not completely mitigate) of these risks and is likely safer than being obese? Yes. Can AAS easily be done in a manner that is significantly and acutely way worse for you than being obese? Yes. People who don't understand what they're doing even if they are already at a healthy body composition can send themselves into a hypertensive crisis and die. The risks for all of the negatives from AAS are also greatly increased when overweight - there's a reason that despite a cupboard of compounds that will help me read my musculature goals quicker being within arm's reach, I am not injecting any of them besides physiological levels of testosterone and enough nandrolone to get me joint relief - because I am heavy enough that doing so would significantly increase the chances of doing lasting harm to my body.
Nothing I’ve said is “explicitly dangerous.” Step down from your horse.

If someone were taking it perpetually, sure I’d agree with you, but a six to eight week cycle of 10 to 20mg of Anavar isn’t going to leave anyone with lasting damage unless they are stacking it with 500mg or more of test. I don’t recommend it for younger people with higher natural levels, but if you are in your 40s and up, and you do post cycle properly, there are few risks.

Now, I would run away from a stronger AAS like Dianibol unless you are being guided by a physician or expert. Let’s be clear about the fact that none of us on this forum are experts in any of this stuff.

If people want more information on this stuff they should head to MESO or another site dedicated to that. I think we are toeing the line here with talk about these drugs.
 
M

Nothing I’ve said is “explicitly dangerous.” Step down from your horse.

If someone were taking it perpetually, sure I’d agree with you, but a six to eight week cycle of 10 to 20mg of Anavar isn’t going to leave anyone with lasting damage unless they are stacking it with 500mg or more of test. I don’t recommend it for younger people with higher natural levels, but if you are in your 40s and up, and you do post cycle properly, there are few risks.

Now, I would run away from a stronger AAS like Dianibol unless you are being guided by a physician or expert. Let’s be clear about the fact that none of us on this forum are experts in any of this stuff.

If people want more information on this stuff they should head to MESO or another site dedicated to that. I think we are toeing the line here with talk about these drugs.
10 to 20mg of anavar can still cause significant htpa suppression. It will vary for individual to individual. And the results from such a low dose for a man are minimal - why are you risking suppression for a short cycle that will do very little? And yes, suggesting that oral AAS are safer than acetaminophen is explicitly dangerous and wildly inaccurate.

I'm fully in favor of informed individuals being able to put what they want into their body, and that includes gear. I'm not on a high horse - I'm saying that you should not provide a bunch of incorrect information to people and suggest they go cut with winstrol or take anavar just because.

People should 100% be researching in other places if they are interested in doing AAS, but if you're going to say that, perhaps don't suggest people take AAS in the first place?
 
10 to 20mg of anavar can still cause significant htpa suppression. It will vary for individual to individual. And the results from such a low dose for a man are minimal - why are you risking suppression for a short cycle that will do very little? And yes, suggesting that oral AAS are safer than acetaminophen is explicitly dangerous and wildly inaccurate.

I'm fully in favor of informed individuals being able to put what they want into their body, and that includes gear. I'm not on a high horse - I'm saying that you should not provide a bunch of incorrect information to people and suggest they go cut with winstrol or take anavar just because.

People should 100% be researching in other places if they are interested in doing AAS, but if you're going to say that, perhaps don't suggest people take AAS in the first place?
I’m just giving people a starting point. Not walking them through cycles. Seriously, ask yourself what happens if you take a handful of Aspirin vs a handful of Anavar. One will lead to your stomach getting pumped and it’s not the latter. That is an objectively true statement.
 
I’m just giving people a starting point. Not walking them through cycles. Seriously, ask yourself what happens if you take a handful of Aspirin vs a handful of Anavar. One will lead to your stomach getting pumped and it’s not the latter. That is an objectively true statement.
Comparing apples and oranges. Yes, there are acute toxicity risk differences between the two. But if we're assuming that people aren't just swallowing handfuls, the risks of anavar are higher than the risks of aspirin.

Acute LD50 is not all that matters in safety profiles. People die from chugging water.
 
Comparing apples and oranges. Yes, there are acute toxicity risk differences between the two. But if we're assuming that people aren't just swallowing handfuls, the risks of anavar are higher than the risks of aspirin.

Acute LD50 is not all that matters in safety profiles. People die from chugging water.
lol. Fair enough. I’m not dismissing what you are saying. I’m arguing that not all AASs are the boogeyman that many people make them out to be. There are safe ways to use them.
 

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