In Novo’s Own Words: Degradation of Amylin Analogs Such as Cagrilintide (and How to Test For It)

None of us here are actual experts on any of this, which is unfortunate because people reading these threads are going to take a lot of what is said here to heart and feel some measure of confidence in things just because people who seemed better informed on a subject wrote out a forum message.

Obviously, we're all signing up for taking significantly enhanced risks in buying vials of white powder from china, reconstituting then, and injecting them. No one should be doing any of this if they're not willing to do the calculus there and decide it's within their risk tolerance.

But I also think we should take potential health concerns with what appears to be directly referenceable science backing them seriously and discuss those as best we can with the level of understanding we have, regardless of whether or not some of the people involved in the discussion might drive us up the wall with how they argue.
 
Really wish we'd spend more time focused on what the OP has written and backed up with scientific evidence, rather than the OP himself.

Because this shit is pretty scary, I know we're used to all sorts of peptides of unknown benefit or harm, but here it seems we have a peptide with a likely known harm.
I wish as well. There’s a few on this forum that have a habit of being contentious while ignoring actual issues of discussion. Someone took the time to put helpful material together and then the opening salvo from one individual is to start attacking who he or she is while really adding nothing of substance to the conversation. I feel sad saying this because I’ve always found this forum to be helpful but there’s been lots of degradation in utility over the last few weeks. Can we just stop these personal attacks and get back to useful discussion??
 
I understand we all take risks here in the gray, but this is the first time I’ve found something to be terrifying. I’ve already used this product. Have I damaged myself? Is Cagrilinitide safe to use? What reconstitution method can increase the margin of safety? Has anyone reported any complications from using this? I was hoping this discussion would answer the above question, unfortunately all I found was something akin to a Twitter political battle. Seriously tho, can someone knowledgeable please explore the above questions?
 
I understand we all take risks here in the gray, but this is the first time I’ve found something to be terrifying. I’ve already used this product. Have I damaged myself? Is Cagrilinitide safe to use? What reconstitution method can increase the margin of safety? Has anyone reported any complications from using this? I was hoping this discussion would answer the above question, unfortunately all I found was something akin to a Twitter political battle. Seriously tho, can someone knowledgeable please explore the above questions?
I won't say I'm knowledgeable. I'm just reading stuff

But here is what I see from a non-scientist perspective.

1. Cagri may possibly form fibrils under the wrong conditions and fibrils might be bad for you

2. The wrong conditions might be hard to achieve, requires heating and a centrifuge, so don't worry

3. But also novo put cagri+sema in different chambers in their trials so obviously they are concerned about mixing.

4. Cagri probably doesn't form fibrils but may form precursors to fibrils called oligomers that cause problems with pancreatic hormones

5. If this is true, cagri might enhance
Type 2 diabetes or hurt the pancreas.


Again please don't listen to me because I know nothing. But I see some risk here but not specific to me

Not sure what to do but not terrified
 
I understand we all take risks here in the gray, but this is the first time I’ve found something to be terrifying. I’ve already used this product. Have I damaged myself? Is Cagrilinitide safe to use? What reconstitution method can increase the margin of safety? Has anyone reported any complications from using this? I was hoping this discussion would answer the above question, unfortunately all I found was something akin to a Twitter political battle. Seriously tho, can someone knowledgeable please explore the above questions?
I’d also love to know. I’ve injected lots of cagri over the last several months and thought I had my mind made up about its safety but as we all know, we’re doing the research on ourselves. So new information presents me with new concerns, because obviously we want to remain safe by being informed. I keep waiting around hoping the discussion becomes productive.
 
I won't say I'm knowledgeable. I'm just reading stuff

But here is what I see from a non-scientist perspective.

1. Cagri may possibly form fibrils under the wrong conditions and fibrils might be bad for you

2. The wrong conditions might be hard to achieve, requires heating and a centrifuge, so don't worry

3. But also novo put cagri+sema in different chambers in their trials so obviously they are concerned about mixing.

4. Cagri probably doesn't form fibrils but may form precursors to fibrils called oligomers that cause problems with pancreatic hormones

5. If this is true, cagri might enhance
Type 2 diabetes or hurt the pancreas.


Again please don't listen to me because I know nothing. But I see some risk here but not specific to me

Not sure what to do but not terrified
Thanks. I saw the centrifuge and the heat also which gave me hope that I have not yet injured myself but the oligomers appear to be the primary concern. I find losing my pancreas while attempting to get healthy terrifying. Hopefully we’ll get some answers but until then my cagri is on hold. I thought the worst case scenario was nausea lethargy or constipation, organ damage is next level
 
I’d also love to know. I’ve injected lots of cagri over the last several months and thought I had my mind made up about its safety but as we all know, we’re doing the research on ourselves. So new information presents me with new concerns, because obviously we want to remain safe by being informed. I keep waiting around hoping the discussion becomes productive.
Same. It’s a good lesson. Maybe it’s time to cut out all the extras and just stick to Reta. I don’t know.
 
I’d also love to know. I’ve injected lots of cagri over the last several months and thought I had my mind made up about its safety but as we all know, we’re doing the research on ourselves. So new information presents me with new concerns, because obviously we want to remain safe by being informed. I keep waiting around hoping the discussion becomes productive.
Found a nice thread on Reddit that addresses some concerns but again skips the oligomers https://www.reddit.com/r/cagrilintide/s/XbHDycBq4w
 
It's time to shine before an admin locks this thread again, adding to the drama is the only reason I'm commenting here, like all these comments lol

Nice write up btw
They won’t lock it unless I say something.

Oops, there it is.
 
They won’t lock it unless I say something.

Oops, there it is.
You tend to bypass whatever the topic is and start trolling and insulting people. Then, unsurprisingly, off-topic fights ensue and threads get locked. You’re the cause, not the effect. Just like the comment I am responding to here: it’s simple trolling behavior, has nothing to do with anything anyone else has been discussing
 
You tend to bypass whatever the topic is and start trolling and insulting people. Then, unsurprisingly, off-topic fights ensue and threads get locked. You’re the cause, not the effect. Just like the comment I am responding to here: it’s simple trolling behavior, has nothing to do with anything anyone else has been discussing
Well, the last one was my sticking up for someone who was attacked for trying to share something they found interesting. I don’t think that’s even close to trolling.
 
For now, my perspective having digested some of this is that I’ll be staying off cagrilintide. There’s just so much other stuff available, I don’t see the absolute necessity of it. Whatever small benefit it may provide in a stack balanced against the risk of amyloid fibrils in the brain is not worth it to me. Reta, Tirz, and Sema work well enough (and there’s other amazing stuff in the pipeline).
Just throwing out thoughts here (none of this has been proven to my knowledge). Just prognosticating;

Type 2 DM involves insulin resistance.
You’re making tons of insulin but your body does not respond to it well.
Amylin is co-secreted at the same time as insulin and released into the blood stream (this part is for sure true;
is made by beta cells in the pancreas).
Since excess insulin is made in T2DM, it would seem to make logical sense that excess amylin is also made in T2DM.
This excess amylin can then form amyloid fibrils which can lead to Alzheimer’s.
This may explain why insulin resistance bears a strong correlation with the development of ALZ dementia.
It is also no surprise that this amylin (also called IAPP) also forms amyloid within the pancreas in people with T2DM which has been shown to accelerate the eventual destruction of the pancreas in T2DM. This part has also been heavily proven.
Many of these things are more linked than we may appreciate. Excited for us to improve our understanding of these interrelated subjects.
 
I wonder what effect pH has after the medication is injected. The pH of blood is around 7.4. If cagri forms oligomers and fibrils at this pH are they just counting on it not staying in the bloodstream long enough to form many? Is there a safe level of these?

Sure, when you're healthy the blood brain barrier should keep amyloid out, but various things can cause it to get leaky. The neurodegenerative diseases associated with misfolded proteins are horrifying enough I'd rather not risk something slipping through. The effects of amyloid deposition in the rest of the body (either in more generalized amyloidosis or pancreatic damage) aren't exactly something I'd like to experience either.

Maybe it's safe. Things that make sense in theory don't always do what you expect in practice, so it could be. Still, there seems to be reason for concern.
 
I wonder what effect pH has after the medication is injected. The pH of blood is around 7.4. If cagri forms oligomers and fibrils at this pH are they just counting on it not staying in the bloodstream long enough to form many? Is there a safe level of these?

Sure, when you're healthy the blood brain barrier should keep amyloid out, but various things can cause it to get leaky. The neurodegenerative diseases associated with misfolded proteins are horrifying enough I'd rather not risk something slipping through. The effects of amyloid deposition in the rest of the body (either in more generalized amyloidosis or pancreatic damage) aren't exactly something I'd like to experience either.

Maybe it's safe. Things that make sense in theory don't always do what you expect in practice, so it could be. Still, there seems to be reason for concern.
It's my understanding that while it remains bound to albumin, the effect of pH are nullified.
 
Bee, you're right the opening statement was aggressive (without the context of its origin). But you're supposed to de-escalate and you turned it up a few notches instead. Good job eventually getting it back under control.

Good job everyone else for continuing to ignore the couple of obvious trolls and trying to have the conversation that was brought up.

Anyone want to take a stab at actually rebutting the statements? I'm definitely no chemist.
 
Anyone want to take a stab at actually rebutting the statements? I'm definitely no chemist.

I responded to this claim in another long thread about Cagri. I don't feel like debating it but it's here for people to read if they want another perspective. I don't take Cagri, but I don't think it's dangerous, and it makes me sad that so many people are unnecessarily fearful

Here's how I read the paper that I think we're both discussing, but hasn't been explicitly quoted so far:

The first time pH is mentioned it is because attempting to formulate their first compound at a ph of 7 resulted in deamination - it wasn't stable enough.

"We found that formulation at pH 7 caused chemical instability including deamidation of asparagine residues, as reported for pramlintide, (17,18) and this could not be solved by formulations or minor pH adjustments. In order not to deviate too much from h-amylin, formulation at low pH seemed necessary."

It was much more stable at a pH of 4, but that did not stop fibril formation.

"Formulation at pH 4 was preferred for chemical stability based on published pramlintide data, as described above. (18) However, when 1 was taken into further preclinical development and high doses were given subcutaneously to rats, there were quite severe injection site reactions with signs of necrosis. A precipitate was observed at the injection site that appeared to have a fibrillar structure resembling classical h-amylin fibrils when studied with electron microscopy."

This appeared to be the result of fibril formation at higher a pH when solubility was low

"The hypothesis emerged that compound 1 in low doses binds to albumin at the injection site and is kept soluble by albumin despite low solubility at pH 7.4 in albumin-free aqueous solutions. At high doses, there might not be enough albumin at the injection site, and compound 1 precipitates and forms fibrils as pH rises."

They did not solve this by tinkering with the pH, they tossed this product (compound 1), and started looking for something that had better solubility and lower propensity to form fibrils in the pH range that offered the most stability.

"As fibrils of h-amylin are known to be cytotoxic, (31) the new design strategy therefore focused at identifying compounds with better solubility in the pH range 4.0–7.4 and with low tendency to form fibrils."

The explicit purpose of the centrifuge test was to evaluate tendency to form fibrils.

"Two assays were introduced to accommodate the selection. First, a simple solubility assay (Table 4) in the pH range from formulation pH (4.0) to physiological (7.4) was used... Second a fibrillation assay used in insulin research was introduced to filter out compounds with a high propensity to fibrillate (Table 5). It was based on Thioflavin T fluorescence of fibrils after exposure to mechanical stress over 2 days.

They created over 800 compounds while trying to get this right. Only four resisted fibril formation in the assay (mechanical centrifuge test) for more than 35 hours and showed significant potency.

"Among the more than 800 amylin-based peptides made..."

"Only nine compounds had a lag-time longer than 35 h, and of those, only four had attractive in vivo properties—high potency and long duration of action (8, 22, 23, and 24)."

They ultimately went with #23 because they expected it to perform better when in humans. Compound #23 is Cagrilinitide.


"In the final choice between 22 and 23 (differing at position 17; Figure 2), the species difference in vitro indicated that 23 might have the largest potency difference in favor of the human receptor compared to 22."
 
I responded to this claim in another long thread about Cagri. I don't feel like debating it but it's here for people to read if they want another perspective. I don't take Cagri, but I don't think it's dangerous, and it makes me sad that so many people are unnecessarily fearful
I feel like I fairly thoroughly argued against this post in the other thread.

To summarize it from that thread, it is obvious the centrifuge test was meant to be a proxy for potential long term degradation - that was the whole point. A 45 hour test is not useful for any sort of commercial applications otherwise, since no one prescribed cagrilintide would be taking it within 45 hours of formulation, or using it in a centrifuge at high heat. It is an attempt to recreate the sort of results they expect cagrilintide might have when reconstituted against the long term. And, ultimately, they could have gone with that formulation at a pH of 7.5 and not had to develop a whole new pen that kept cagrilintide and semaglutide separate, significantly increasing their cost, but instead decided that doing so was necessary.

The rest is basically a bunch of extrapolation from that premise which I would argue is untrue. It also says absolutely nothing about the tests in the patent, which were significantly less extreme, and also showed fibril formation at 7.5 (and even 4.0 depending on the buffering agent used.)

I do not think it is a persuasive argument in favor of not seeing any fibril formation for our use cases.
 
You seem to have a weird fibril fetish and are well known for it in the community. I’m pretty sure others have already tried to talk you down so I won’t waste my breath. I will refer you to my previous comment and cited article.
Lol I just had to give a nod of appreciation to the phrase "fibril fetish," it tickled me!
 
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