ASC tirz and sema quality?

[keangkong]

That's false.

The entire process is laid out from A to Z.

I'll look for it later if no one beats me to it.

I have no idea who is right. I do know that manufacturing (as opposed to reconstituting) tirzepatide is beyond the abilities of this ape.

 

[keangkong]

There's a nuance to be made, the molecular structure of Tirzepatide is public, not the manufacturing process, reagents, sequence, etc.

These are very important to know, because chemistry is not as simple as it seems, remember that there's billions in R&D spent just to figure this out.

Unless you're questioning Janoshik, it seems that many Chinese folks have figured out how to create the tirzepatide molecule. I'm confident that if Janoshik was wrong on this, Eli Lilly would have said so publicly and we would have heard about it. I do not claim that the reconstituted liquid that one gets is 100% the same as made by Eli Lilly. As Heraclitus said, "No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man."

 

[scarywood75]

Unless you're questioning Janoshik, it seems that many Chinese folks have figured out how to create the tirzepatide molecule. I'm confident that if Janoshik was wrong on this, Eli Lilly would have said so publicly and we would have heard about it. I do not claim that the reconstituted liquid that one gets is 100% the same as made by Eli Lilly. As Heraclitus said, "No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man."

Right, no I'm saying that the manufacturers producing the raws for Elli Lilly are probably the same our Chinese vendors are using, or the full recipe leaked somehow.

 

[scarywood75]

Unless you're questioning Janoshik, it seems that many Chinese folks have figured out how to create the tirzepatide molecule. I'm confident that if Janoshik was wrong on this, Eli Lilly would have said so publicly and we would have heard about it. I do not claim that the reconstituted liquid that one gets is 100% the same as made by Eli Lilly. As Heraclitus said, "No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man."

We have even less info for retatrutide as it's not even FDA approved and yet we can buy it.

Some vendors said the raw dropped price recently, which is why we have some cheaper price. This is expected as they are refining the manufacturing process.

What I don't get is, there's a lot of stick and Elli does not need as much at the moment for sure. So how are they producing way more than the needed quantity and why is Elli not doing anything to stop that?

Or maybe other labs were able to do it, but again this stuff is complicated, it needed years of R&D to find and refine the synthetic process.

These are just open thoughts, cuz I'm curious about it and it sucks not to know lol

 

[penewbie]

Ultimately these aren't super complicated molecules to manufacture. It's just an amino acid sequence with a few modified amino acids.

The R&D is finding the right sequence, and running huge trials on it. (and all the failed sequences),

 

[scarywood75]

To give y'all an idea on how hard this is, the main chain of Retatrutide is composed of 39 individual amino acids linked together.

For comparison, watch NileRed's videos on YouTube where he converts Styrene into Cinnamaldrhyde and how much work that is.

Cinnamaldrhyde is about 1/36 the molecular mass of Retatrutide, this means it's 36 times more complex than Cinnamaldrhyde which to me looks incredibly complexe already

 

[scarywood75]

Ultimately these aren't super complicated molecules to manufacture. It's just an amino acid sequence with a few modified amino acids.

The R&D is finding the right sequence, and running huge trials on it. (and all the failed sequences),

Yeah I guess it seems more complex to me as I'm not a chemist

 

[keangkong]

We have even less info for retatrutide as it's not even FDA approved and yet we can buy it.

Some vendors said the raw dropped price recently, which is why we have some cheaper price. This is expected as they are refining the manufacturing process.

What I don't get is, there's a lot of stick and Elli does not need as much at the moment for sure. So how are they producing way more than the needed quantity and why is Elli not doing anything to stop that?

Or maybe other labs were able to do it, but again this stuff is complicated, it needed years of R&D to find and refine the synthetic process.

These are just open thoughts, cuz I'm curious about it and it sucks not to know lol

I believe China will engage in half-hearted attempts to combat the manufacture of retatrutide and tirzepatide. And the US, which only has limited influence on what China will do, cares more about stopping fentanyl, fentanyl precursors, and similar products. As a result, the US might ask China to stop the sale of retatrutide. Then China will accurately describe the inadequate efforts that it's taking. Despite what you might see on TV, multinational corporations don't rule the world. Eli Lilly is powerful. But it's not all powerful. A 503A compounding pharmacy in the US is far more worried about state regulators than it is about Eli Lilly, which doesn't possess the same legal authority as the regulators.

 

[Lullabytreehugger]

Anyone here tried ASC Sema 20?

Here is the batch I am talking about. No janoshik report that I could find.

I just bought one kit for myself from Tuk Angel.

 

[brentm]

Anyone here tried ASC Sema 20?

Here is the batch I am talking about. No janoshik report that I could find.

I just bought one kit for myself from Tuk Angel.

Test it...

ASC is not a manufacturer. I've seen evidence that some of these vendors are all sourcing from the same shadow manufacturer.

They're just sales people cosplaying to be cute asian girls who run a chemical manufacturing plant.

New label to obfuscate themselves from the last run of "10 vails/kit" (sic) where it was quite obvious that all these sales people are just hawking the same guy's wares.

Run a vial and see how it feels. It's probably fine.

 

[scarywood75]

Test it...

ASC is not a manufacturer. I've seen evidence that some of these vendors are all sourcing from the same shadow manufacturer.

They're just sales people cosplaying to be cute asian girls who run a chemical manufacturing plant.

New label to obfuscate themselves from the last run of "10 vails/kit" (sic) where it was quite obvious that all these sales people are just hawking the same guy's wares.

Run a vial and see how it feels. It's probably fine.

If at least they could include pictures of some cute Asian girls in the box...

 

[penewbie]

Here you go, anyone with a large highly advanced peptide synthesis and chemical lab can follow these steps and manufacture 10 kilos of Tirzepatide:

https://sci-hub.se/downloads/2021-08-11/f2/frederick2021.pdf

https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/9e/ce/02/33656408349167/WO2020159949A1.pdf

 

[mopo89]

Here you go, anyone with a large highly advanced peptide synthesis and chemical lab can follow these steps and manufacture 10 kilos of Tirzepatide:

https://sci-hub.se/downloads/2021-08-11/f2/frederick2021.pdf

https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/9e/ce/02/33656408349167/WO2020159949A1.pdf

Thanks I’ve been looking for ideas on what to do with my highly advanced synthesis and chemical lab. It was either this or time machine.

 

[Lullabytreehugger]

I also bought angel’s 60mg tirz. She said they have sent a sample to janoshik for testing.

Hopefully I’ll get it by mid Jan 2025 and report back to you guys here about the quality and feels etc.

 

[scarywood75]

Here you go, anyone with a large highly advanced peptide synthesis and chemical lab can follow these steps and manufacture 10 kilos of Tirzepatide:

https://sci-hub.se/downloads/2021-08-11/f2/frederick2021.pdf

https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/9e/ce/02/33656408349167/WO2020159949A1.pdf

A patent does not contain all the info to synthesize a pharmaceutical, that's just fact. Look it up if you don't trust me.

Now you can of course guess some of it, but the actual manufacturing document that's sent to authorities and manufacturers is like 10 times bigger than that.

I've included a document from scite.ai with references that talks in details as to why a patent is not enough and what's usually missing from it.

If we go back to the beginning, this is why I think not a lot of manufacturers produce it, because nobody unless authorised should have the full recipe unless it leaked and finding the missing bits would cost a fortune in R&D.

 

[penewbie]

Tripling down, lol.

I think at this point you so heavily invested, no amount of proof could even convince you otherwise.

Only time will tell.

Fucking called it, too predictable lol.

 

[scarywood75]

Fucking called it, too predictable lol.

Lol what, you provided a patent, where does it says that it's the entire manufacturing process from A to Z? You gave me a public patent that contains like 100 pages ,what exactly in that says that it's the full recipe?

I provided proof for you that a patent is NOT the full recipe.

You proved nothing dude

 

[penewbie]

Lol what, you provided a patent, where does it says that it's the entire manufacturing process from A to Z? You gave me a public patent that contains like 100 pages ,what exactly in that says that it's the full recipe?

I provided proof for you that a patent is NOT the full recipe.

You proved nothing dude

Too. Predictable.

 

[scarywood75]

There's not much else I can say, it's not true that we have the full recipe from a patent, that's not the principle of a patent

 

[scarywood75]

Too. Predictable.

Ok then another trust me bro

 

[penewbie]

There's not much else I can say, it's not true that we have the full recipe from a patent, that's not the principle of a patent

🙂

 

[scarywood75]

🙂

You sure provided a lot of proof uh, what proof do we have that there's no missing info from the patent? You studied it? You're a chemist?

 

[penewbie]

You sure provided a lot of proof uh, what proof do we have that there's no missing info from the patent? You studied it? You're a chemist?

🙂

 

[scarywood75]

🙂

🙂

 

[brentm]

If we go back to the beginning, this is why I think not a lot of manufacturers produce it, because nobody unless authorised should have the full recipe unless it leaked and finding the missing bits would cost a fortune in R&D.

Why would China spend a fortune on R&D to replace missing bits? They've been breaking into systems and stealing intellectual property on a massive scale for decades.

 

[scarywood75]

Why would China spend a fortune on R&D to replace missing bits? They've been breaking into systems and stealing intellectual data on a massive scale for decades.

Yeah, stolen property is definitely one possible explanation

 

[brentm]

Yeah, stolen property is definitely one possible explanation

It's been well-known that this has been happening on a massive scale since Mandiant's report on APT1.

Bribes work well too... Employees on the inside are willing to trade secrets for money. There's lots of ways to get secrets that don't include actually doing the heavy lifting.

 

[scarywood75]

It's been well-known that this has been happening on a massive scale since Mandiant's report on APT1.

Bribes work well too... Employees on the inside are willing to trade secrets for money. There's lots of ways to get secrets that don't include actually doing the heavy lifting.

Right, but even with the full process I don't think your average joe vendor can reliably reproduce it.

To me the most likely is actual manufacturers selling to our underground labs in secret on the side.

It's been seen a few times where manufacturer would often sell counterfeit products that are from their own clients to other clients to make more money

 

[brentm]

Right, but even with the full process I don't think your average joe vendor can reliably reproduce it.

To me the most likely is actual manufacturers selling to our underground labs in secret on the side.

It's been seen a few times where manufacturer would often sell counterfeit products that are from their own clients to other clients to make more money

Why would actual manufacturers sell to underground labs when they can sell to retail in America though?

Also I think the differences between the acetate version (genuine) and the salt version (gray) prove it's not genuine.

I don't think the vendor producing it is "average". And there are also producers that manufacture for human grade which gets compounded. So the cats out of the bag....

Generally patents are only worth what companies are willing to spend defending them. I'd imagine the patent is enough of a recipe for Chinese chemists to reproduce the drugs so long as they're experienced in that field. Who knows... maybe they poached chemists from 'actual manufacturers'.

Whoever it is, they're pretty well hidden in plain sight.

 

[scarywood75]

Why would actual manufacturers sell to underground labs when they can sell to retail in America though?

Also I think the differences between the acetate version (genuine) and the salt version (gray) prove it's not genuine.

I don't think the vendor producing it is "average". And there are also producers that manufacture for human grade which gets compounded. So the cats out of the bag....

Generally patents are only worth what companies are willing to spend defending them. I'd imagine the patent is enough of a recipe for Chinese chemists to reproduce the drugs so long as they're experienced in that field. Who knows... maybe they poached chemists from 'actual manufacturers'.

Whoever it is, they're pretty well hidden in plain sight.

I would love to get some affirmations to that, it's sad we don't know but I suppose it's for a good reason