How do you guys mitigate the cost of Bac water

woundcarping said:
If you don’t give it air, it’ll suck air through the stopper when you withdraw the needle.
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It will get the small amount of air contained in the needle when you originally insert the syringe, but that's about it. If you doubt this, try withdrawing the needle while you have the vial upside down and tell me how much air you see enter the vial during withdrawal.
 
Have you read the label on the Hospira 30ml bottle?
nitetrak said:
I don't understand why insulin vials are 90 days, compounded sema and tirz are 90 days but the BAC water they (assumingly) are made with some say is 28 days. Did someone come up with 28 days because we are not using a sterile lab or is this for labs too?

I go 90 days in ziploc bag fridge with everything, sometimes a little longer if not visually bad. I filter everything to new vials and cross my fingers sometimes.

I would really like to see a group test of Hospira where they use all but 10ml and store it for 5 months (or longer) before sending for testing.
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There has been testing. I saw a graph posted on TG somewhere recently. Maybe do some online searching?
 
These documents will be helpful.

Also: PTDS did tests on BAC water and the % of alcohol in opened vials for and extended period of something like 90 to 120 days if I remember correctly. Most people walked away determining they could use the BAC for a much longer period of time than they previously assumed.

There is currently a Peppys member running an experiment he is reporting out in Peppys on the efficacy of BAC and filters in removing bacteria from solutions. Very interesting discussion for those who are members and wanting to follow along: https://chat.peppys.org/t/qualitative-testing-of-bac-on-bacterial-growth/49042/99
 

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tubby said:
It will get the small amount of air contained in the needle when you originally insert the syringe, but that's about it. If you doubt this, try withdrawing the needle while you have the vial upside down and tell me how much air you see enter the vial during withdrawal.
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… that’s how I know it will suck air😂

So will 3ml vials of reconstituted peptides, same as 10ml vials of oil.
 
woundcarping said:
… that’s how I know it will suck air😂

So will 3ml vials of reconstituted peptides, same as 10ml vials of oil.
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Actually I put that to the test just now. Seems you either get no air bubbles or a couple small bubbles, depending on the speed you withdraw the needle from the BAC vial. I'd guess gauge of the needle might factor in a bit as well.
 
tubby said:
Just stop at the plasma and sperm banks for donations on the way to the BAC store and that should cover the cost. 😉

I've always scratched my head on the notion of an expiration date for BAC water. Obviously if you're engaging in unsanitary practices and slowly contaminating the BAC vial over time you could run into a problem at some point, but if you're not injecting air into the vial (which some people apparently do), what exactly is the aging concern people are fretting will happen in weeks to a few months?

I'm obviously aware of what the label and documentation from the manufacturer says, but neither addresses my question.
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As I remember, at some point, maybe early 1980s, I think JCAHO made the 28 day requirement… But there was info out there of MDVs that were way past 6 months and being used… Tested and no growth on the medium.

YMMV

A lot depends on the integrity of the stopper after punctures and the level of sterile technique used.
 
tubby said:
Actually I put that to the test just now. Seems you either get no air bubbles or a couple small bubbles, depending on the speed you withdraw the needle from the BAC vial. I'd guess gauge of the needle might factor in a bit as well.
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Wait, I just want to know if you can get most of the 30 ml out of the bottle before the vacuum gets too strong to be able to reasonably pull any. Cause if you can, Ima quit pushing air in before I pull an equivalent amount of bac. I thought that was just a thing you had to do, same as if you were drawing from vials (which I admittedly haven't done in a good long while).
 
randompersonrandom said:
Wait, I just want to know if you can get most of the 30 ml out of the bottle before the vacuum gets too strong to be able to reasonably pull any. Cause if you can, Ima quit pushing air in before I pull an equivalent amount of bac. I thought that was just a thing you had to do, same as if you were drawing from vials (which I admittedly haven't done in a good long while).
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If you're using 31 gauge needles, good luck!
If you're using 30 gauge (or larger) needles, I haven't personally went down to the last drop of a BAC vial, but don't see why this would be a problem. If it eventually became a problem, you could add back in a small amount of air at that point.

It's not so much that a small amount of air is going to cause any significant contamination problem (this is BAC water, after all), but rather that the more oxygen you introduce to the vial, the more potential you're creating for benzoic acid to slowly oxidize. Or at least that's my thinking.

Of course, when you're dealing with peptides in a vial, the same logic applies, but to a greater extent (since peptides are presumably more fragile/reactive than benzoic acid).
 
tubby said:
If you're using 31 gauge needles, good luck!
If you're using 30 gauge (or larger) needles, I haven't personally went down to the last drop of a BAC vial, but don't see why this would be a problem. If it eventually became a problem, you could add back in a small amount of air at that point.

It's not so much that a small amount of air is going to cause any significant contamination problem (this is BAC water, after all), but rather that the more oxygen you introduce to the vial, the more potential you're creating for benzoic acid to slowly oxidize. Or at least that's my thinking.

Of course, when you're dealing with peptides in a vial, the same logic applies, but to a greater extent.
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Hell, the only time something goes into my bac bottle is when I'm reconning, and those needles are 25g. I might as well quit putting air in and tell my ma to do the same; it's a good point that why add air before I have to?
 
I am switching to vial spikes for Hospira since it lasts so long. I don't want to keep piercing the stopper and increase coring risk.

I don't like piercing the my daily vial until empty either.
 
HereKittyKitty said:
I am switching to vial spikes for Hospira since it lasts so long. I don't want to keep piercing the stopper and increase coring risk.

I don't like piercing the my daily vial until empty either.
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Hmm?
intended for single-vial use and typically provides a microbial barrier for up to about 7 days when proper aseptic technique is followed, such as disinfecting the Clave connector with 70% isopropyl alcohol before each access. It is not specifically rated for 28-day use. The spike should remain attached to the same vial and be discarded after about 7 days, when the vial is discarded, or according to facility protocol, whichever comes first.
Key Features and Benefits
  • Needle-Free Access: Allows for multiple withdrawals from a single vial without using a needle, increasing safety.
  • Venting: Many spikes (e.g., PolySpike) contain a hydrophobic filter that automatically equalizes pressure, preventing vacuum buildup and making extraction easier
    .
    • Contamination Control: Protects against microbial contamination when used with proper technique.
    • Compatibility: Designed for different vial closure sizes, typically 13 mm, 20 mm, or 28 mm.
    • Usage Duration: Often intended for single-vial use, generally recommended to be discarded with the vial or within 7 days, according to facility
 
If you keep your bac 90 days after the first draw, and you’ll keep your reconstituted vials 10 weeks, that seems almost like keeping the same bac in use for 160 days.
 
RetCurious said:
Testing on Bac degradation from another server.
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I don't understand what I'm looking at here. Why are the room-temp no-air and the room-temp air apparently getting BETTER before they get worse? Is this where I find out that bac ages like wine to a point?
 
randompersonrandom said:
I don't understand what I'm looking at here. Why are the room-temp no-air and the room-temp air apparently getting BETTER before they get worse? Is this where I find out that bac ages like wine to a point?
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I'm far too lazy to conduct the analysis myself, but I suspect if that chart was redone to show 95% confidence intervals that the it would just be statistical noise. Nobody is seriously suggesting that new benzyl alcohol is forming spontaneously inside of these vials. 🙂
 
tubby said:
I'm far too lazy to conduct the analysis myself, but I suspect if that chart was redone to show 95% confidence intervals that the it would just be statistical noise. Nobody is seriously suggesting that new benzyl alcohol is forming spontaneously inside of these vials. 🙂
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Yes, I am sure of that too - these are just basic tests with base data graphed out on very small sample sizes.
 
FamousGoodkitty said:
Yes, I am sure of that too - these are just basic tests with base data graphed out on very small sample sizes.
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The plot really is a head scratcher, though. Seems odd that "first puncture" would be such a key event in terms of setting the trajectory between 90 and 120 days and seemingly override the different storage conditions and extraction rates between the vials. Without the methodology being spelled out, it does make me wonder if something could have changed with the testing equipment between day 90 and day 120. Perhaps (if analysis equipment was used) its annual calibration was performed between those dates or a different tech was working in the lab that day?
 
PablinhoDoFavela said:
I just found out once opened Bac water vials have 28 days for use. Apparently it cant be frozen to last longer either.

I looked into 3ml bottles but apparently these are not safe for personal use.

How do you guys mitigate the prices?
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Answering OP’s original question about price - with a decent organized mass purchasing initiative, you can get legit Hospira 30 ml for $8 including shipping. That’s 80 cents per 3 ml vial, negligible compared to those precious few mg of Chinese mystery powder nestled in the bottom of the vessel.
 
Sorry meant to say sterilise with an alcohol pad. The BAC bottle will suck in air to equalise pressure as you remove BAC but it contains 0.9% benzyl alcohol to inhibit bacterial growth
 
Hospira is good for 90 days with minimal degradation. Store it in a cool, dark place (cupboard)
 
the 28-day rule comes from manufacturer studies done under specific conditions, they tested it, it passed, that's all they can legally claim. Doesn't mean it degrades on day 29.

BAC water contains 0.9% benzyl alcohol precisely to inhibit bacterial growth. As long as you're using a clean needle every time, not injecting air back into the vial, and storing away from heat and light, 90 days is a very reasonable window. That's what I do.
 
So if bac is to be kept in a dark cabinet and fridge or freezer can deteriorate it, when some people freeze reconstituted tirz, why won't the reconstituted vial not deteriorate?
 
Dilbert4Life said:
So if bac is to be kept in a dark cabinet and fridge or freezer can deteriorate it, when some people freeze reconstituted tirz, why won't the reconstituted vial not deteriorate?
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The trick is to store the BAC water inside of an old Pop Tarts box before putting it away, which will nullify the evil powers of your fridge/freezer.
 
marraqy said:
the 28-day rule comes from manufacturer studies done under specific conditions, they tested it, it passed, that's all they can legally claim. Doesn't mean it degrades on day 29.

BAC water contains 0.9% benzyl alcohol precisely to inhibit bacterial growth. As long as you're using a clean needle every time, not injecting air back into the vial, and storing away from heat and light, 90 days is a very reasonable window. That's what I do.
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Every time I draw from my Hospira BAC Water, I watch tiny air bubbles go in from one of the previous holes stabbed in from a prior draw. Can't avoid it. That said, I don't think air entering the vial has an effect on the contents in any case.
Dilbert4Life said:
So if bac is to be kept in a dark cabinet and fridge or freezer can deteriorate it, when some people freeze reconstituted tirz, why won't the reconstituted vial not deteriorate?
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This is why storing Hospira in the fridge is fine. People can't think logically. There's nothing wrong with it, and it undoubtedly helps it to last longer. The package insert says to store at room temp. Because that's what they tested it at. Too many of us store it in the fridge for it to be a serious problem.

At the end of the day, we all have to do what we're personally comfortable with.
 
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