My Cagri Chronicle: ongoing updates on progress with cag starting October 2024

yeah last week was a bust on both tirz and cagri. i haven't weighed myself in a week because i already know. it will probably take this week and next week to get back to my low scale weight.

i'm in no mood to mess around on this stuff, i want to get to my goal weight as expediently as possible, so after 5 weeks on 10mg, i went up to 12.5mg today, and went back to the arm flap injection site as that seemed to work really well. i know a lot of people try to stay on lower doses longer but i seem to respond better on the higher end. now that we are seeing prices drop like they are, i'm not opposed to testing out even higher doses than 15mg if i need to in the long run. hell why not 25mg or 40mg 🙂 I think 20mg twice a week should do well.

so anyway, day 1 on 12.5mg. had a 30mg protein shake for breakfast and not hungry for lunch.

also considering going up from cagri 0.3mg to 0.5mg this week but it's thanksgiving week in the US so i may not. or maybe i'll wait till friday instead of the normal thursday.

just really felt like the tirz wasn't super effective last week and felt like the cagri did nothing. haven't really had a week like that since starting tirz in july.

anyway, back to it! let's have a better week this week.
 
there's not much to say this week. still tirz 12.5 and cag 0.5. both are doing what i expect them to. i haven't lost any weight in 3-4 weeks though. but it's not the meds' fault. i've gotten away from some good habits re: protein management, not getting enough water/electrolytes, not eating healthy when i do eat - in favor of quick snacks like crackers and cheese and even some cookies which i almost never eat, been working more carbs into meals. and the biggie is that i've been hitting the bottle pretty hard the last couple weeks. so i'm going to just take a break from that for a while i think and try to get back to focusing on hitting protein goals and healthy meals.
 
i didn't feel much from the 0.5mg cag friday so i added another 0.25 saturday. didn't feel much from that either. wondering if this vial is degraded, it's a couple months old. or if you just build a tolerance quickly. i did fall asleep saturday afternoon for 10 minutes but really not bad sides. but all weekend i felt snackish and just felt like the stuff isn't doing much.

i may mix up another vial this week and put in a bit of acetic acid to make the ph closer to 4. i tested the cagri i did before and it tested out between 5-6ph, so did the bac water. so this means like 195 units of bac and 5 units of 5% acetic acid solution should make the ph right about 4.0

i'm still not losing weight (i actually haven't checked because i can feel it) but i dropped the booze last week and i'm about 5 days into that so i'm hoping that makes a difference over the next couple weeks.
 
clayd said:
i didn't feel much from the 0.5mg cag friday so i added another 0.25 saturday. didn't feel much from that either. wondering if this vial is degraded, it's a couple months old. or if you just build a tolerance quickly. i did fall asleep saturday afternoon for 10 minutes but really not bad sides. but all weekend i felt snackish and just felt like the stuff isn't doing much.

i may mix up another vial this week and put in a bit of acetic acid to make the ph closer to 4. i tested the cagri i did before and it tested out between 5-6ph, so did the bac water. so this means like 195 units of bac and 5 units of 5% acetic acid solution should make the ph right about 4.0

i'm still not losing weight (i actually haven't checked because i can feel it) but i dropped the booze last week and i'm about 5 days into that so i'm hoping that makes a difference over the next couple weeks.
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This is entirely anecdotal, but I’ve read lots of experiences from people who have taken Cagri and it seems to lose its super potent effect after a short while. Tried it 3x, got a somewhat similar result, side effects not worth it, so I’ve largely stuck with the usuals.
 
I never got a "super potent effect" effect from Cagri. Started at .125 and currently at 1mg/wk. I feel like it's extending my Tirz "feels" more consistently throughout the 7 days and unstuck weight loss without having to increase my Tirz from 5mg (been at that dose 8mos). At a lower dose of Cagri I didn't notice anything. It's been subtle but I'll go through this kit. I was basically looking to add something that didn't overlap or replicate Tirz but added another component (amylin).
 
well cool, tirz this week feels right. just did the cag 0.5. planning on another 0.5mg on saturday. no booze for a week now. gotta say i'm more alert and feel better.

big news is that i broke my 6-7 week stall with a whoosh. dropped another 4 pounds rather suddenly from the stall weight. i guess cutting out the alcohol made a difference.

side effects at an all time low. but i do expect to have a little fatigue this weekend with the cag. it is funny, it seems to come on after a meal.
a user on here is selling some leftover cagrisema so i picked it up, when that arrives i may switch from straight cag to cagrisema for a bit and see how that goes. i'll be triple stacking, for funsies. watching out for gastroparesis.
 
Onederland today! 199.6.

T12.5 and Cag 0.75 still doing a good job, feels like i'm in the sweet spot for now.

Very happy, I was hoping to make it below 200 by the end of the year, but when I was stuck at 208 3 weeks ago I almost lost hope. Moving up to 12.5 and then cag 0.75 made a big difference and busted my stall. It also finally finally seems to have moderately reduced my alcohol cravings.

cag weekend fatigue is still there, i slept 10 hours saturday night. but daily b12 and electrolytes and vitamin d does seem to help.

another big win - my blood pressure was 118/75 today. it is never never in normal range, i always run moderately high. i'm always trying to stay under 140/90 to keep the doctors happy, 118/75 is awesome for me.

i do have these 3 vials of cagrisema and was thinking about switching from 0.75 cag to 0.5/0.5 cagrisema, but i dunno, things are going well right now, may not change at the moment.
 
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Just wanted to say thanks for keeping us updated! I'm so happy for you with your results. I also have 10/10 "CagriSema" in my freezer (gift from vendor) so I'm anxious to see if you proceed with the blend. I'm at 1.25 Cagri so I'd have to discontinue Tirz and start Sema separately from Cagri to work up to 1.25 to initialize and equal parts blend. Never tried Sema but I'm at goal so I can experiment.

Thx again and Happy Holidays 😁
 
nonyabizznez said:
Just wanted to say thanks for keeping us updated! I'm so happy for you with your results. I also have 10/10 "CagriSema" in my freezer (gift from vendor) so I'm anxious to see if you proceed with the blend. I'm at 1.25 Cagri so I'd have to discontinue Tirz and start Sema separately from Cagri to work up to 1.25 to initialize and equal parts blend. Never tried Sema but I'm at goal so I can experiment.

Thx again and Happy Holidays 😁
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Thank you and happy holidays! I was close to giving up on the cagri for a couple weeks but suddenly everything fell into place. This journey is fits and starts for sure.
 
Ayyy this cagrisema is some good shit
12.5 tirz Monday, 0.5 cag Thursday, 0.25/0.25 cagrisema Saturday

I feel great, not fatigued, not nauseated, but could just not care less about food this weekend.

Not intending to stay in this stack permanently, just using up some vials, but it is working well right now
 
still doing tirz 12.5mg, cagrisema 0.75mg
still working. no major sides. still losing weight.
hit a new low today, hit my january goal. my end of feb goal is another 5 pounds and now i have an extra 2 weeks to get it done.

today i took my first grey market tirz after a ousia vial ran out. not my first grey market jab though, the cag and cagrisema is all grey.

i've now lost 13 pounds since i started cagri in october to break a stall. guess it broke the stall. really seeing that paper towel roll effect lately, body is shrinking rapidly. even recent clothes are loose. i notice i look different in the mirror. and my wife finally decided to try out tirz - she only has maybe 10-15 to lose so she started at 1.25mg. says she feels nothing.

when this vial of cagrisema runs out, it's back to tirz + straight cag for me. unless maybe i pick up some cheap sema from somewhere. but the cagrisema mix is expensive.

everything is going well right now, just cruising along and stalking these forums to see what happens with the qsc drama
 
clayd said:
still doing tirz 12.5mg, cagrisema 0.75mg
still working. no major sides. still losing weight.
hit a new low today, hit my january goal. my end of feb goal is another 5 pounds and now i have an extra 2 weeks to get it done.

today i took my first grey market tirz after a ousia vial ran out. not my first grey market jab though, the cag and cagrisema is all grey.

i've now lost 13 pounds since i started cagri in october to break a stall. guess it broke the stall. really seeing that paper towel roll effect lately, body is shrinking rapidly. even recent clothes are loose. i notice i look different in the mirror. and my wife finally decided to try out tirz - she only has maybe 10-15 to lose so she started at 1.25mg. says she feels nothing.

when this vial of cagrisema runs out, it's back to tirz + straight cag for me. unless maybe i pick up some cheap sema from somewhere. but the cagrisema mix is expensive.

everything is going well right now, just cruising along and stalking these forums to see what happens with the qsc drama
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Sema is relatively cheap AF. If you're placing an order for anything else I'd throw a sema kit on and make your own cagrisema, if you like the combo.
 
I'm thinking of starting cagri when I'm about 20lbs from my goal weight which will actually be sooner than I think (probably a couple of months!).

did you buffer your cagri? there have been so many posts about cagri but it all devolves into arguing and i'm still confused about whether it requires buffering lol. i did buy ph strips, but nothing else yet.
 
chmuse said:
Sema is relatively cheap AF. If you're placing an order for anything else I'd throw a sema kit on and make your own cagrisema, if you like the combo.
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that's the conclusion i came to. i wouldn't mix the vials though so the only downside is another shot. i don't mind the shots at all, but i'm going to be riddled with holes if I'm doing 3+ per week 🙂
 
mopo89 said:
I'm thinking of starting cagri when I'm about 20lbs from my goal weight which will actually be sooner than I think (probably a couple of months!).

did you buffer your cagri? there have been so many posts about cagri but it all devolves into arguing and i'm still confused about whether it requires buffering lol. i did buy ph strips, but nothing else yet.
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I did not buffer my cagri but I don't think it's a bad idea.

Do NOT do what I tried: I read up on acetic acid and learned that's what's in household vinegar. I had a few very cheap vials of cagrisema i got secondhand. online calculators told me that 195 units of bac water + 5 units of vinegar would give me a ph of 4 so I added 5 units of vinegar to a vial and it immediately went cloudy.
I googled it and learned that the mix going cloudy means the proteins had "denatured" which means the chains unfolded and the peptides would be useless.

I did see a couple other people out there that were able to buy acetic acid on amazon and added a little to their bac water to drop the ph of their cagri successfully. I don't know why that's any different than vinegar but I guess it is. you'd have to calculate your own proportions, or just add a little bit at a time and test the ph.

here's a post in this forum with a successful ph adjustment https://glp1forum.com/threads/i-tweaked-the-ph.2200/
 
clayd said:
I did not buffer my cagri but I don't think it's a bad idea.

Do NOT do what I tried: I read up on acetic acid and learned that's what's in household vinegar. I had a few very cheap vials of cagrisema i got secondhand. online calculators told me that 195 units of bac water + 5 units of vinegar would give me a ph of 4 so I added 5 units of vinegar to a vial and it immediately went cloudy.
I googled it and learned that the mix going cloudy means the proteins had "denatured" which means the chains unfolded and the peptides would be useless.

I did see a couple other people out there that were able to buy acetic acid on amazon and added a little to their bac water to drop the ph of their cagri successfully. I don't know why that's any different than vinegar but I guess it is. you'd have to calculate your own proportions, or just add a little bit at a time and test the ph.

here's a post in this forum with a successful ph adjustment https://glp1forum.com/threads/i-tweaked-the-ph.2200/
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What did teh pH test at 5 units of vinegar? That seems like a lot
 
clevesand said:
What did teh pH test at 5 units of vinegar? That seems like a lot
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That's 0.05mL out of 2mL total, didn't seem like much to me. Sorry, I don't think I actually tested the pH after mixing it because it went cloudy. But the calculators assured me it would be right at 4.0
 
clayd said:
I did not buffer my cagri but I don't think it's a bad idea.

Do NOT do what I tried: I read up on acetic acid and learned that's what's in household vinegar. I had a few very cheap vials of cagrisema i got secondhand. online calculators told me that 195 units of bac water + 5 units of vinegar would give me a ph of 4 so I added 5 units of vinegar to a vial and it immediately went cloudy.
I googled it and learned that the mix going cloudy means the proteins had "denatured" which means the chains unfolded and the peptides would be useless.

I did see a couple other people out there that were able to buy acetic acid on amazon and added a little to their bac water to drop the ph of their cagri successfully. I don't know why that's any different than vinegar but I guess it is. you'd have to calculate your own proportions, or just add a little bit at a time and test the ph.

here's a post in this forum with a successful ph adjustment https://glp1forum.com/threads/i-tweaked-the-ph.2200/
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okay, I will definitely not use vinegar! 😂
 
clayd said:
That's 0.05mL out of 2mL total, didn't seem like much to me. Sorry, I don't think I actually tested the pH after mixing it because it went cloudy. But the calculators assured me it would be right at 4.0
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What is the purpose of adjusting the cagri to 4.0?
 
chmuse said:
Fibrils and oligomers

*jazz hands*
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Ah, thanks for the rabbit hole. I appear to have missed the drama while I was away.

Since I am not set up to replicate the formulation - important according to the research, simply being 4.0 is not enough, several buffers still resulted in formation. And of course being grey, we have no idea what it was manufactured with - I will stick with tirz 🙂

This is the final (of many) formulation settled on:
  • One (1) cagrilintide formulation at pH 4.0 was prepared, with the following composition:
  • Cagrilintide: 9.6 mg/ml
  • Glutamate: 5 mM (added as 0.74 mg/ml L-glutamic acid)
  • Glycerol: 24 mg/ml
  • Hydrochloric acid (HCl), as necessary to obtain pH 4.0
  • Sodium hydroxide (NaOH), as necessary to obtain pH 4.0
  • Water for Injection (WFI) as solvent.
 
FrankTdog said:
Ah, thanks for the rabbit hole. I appear to have missed the drama while I was away.

Since I am not set up to replicate the formulation - important according to the research, simply being 4.0 is not enough, several buffers still resulted in formation. And of course being grey, we have no idea what it was manufactured with - I will stick with tirz 🙂

This is the final (of many) formulation settled on:
  • One (1) cagrilintide formulation at pH 4.0 was prepared, with the following composition:
  • Cagrilintide: 9.6 mg/ml
  • Glutamate: 5 mM (added as 0.74 mg/ml L-glutamic acid)
  • Glycerol: 24 mg/ml
  • Hydrochloric acid (HCl), as necessary to obtain pH 4.0
  • Sodium hydroxide (NaOH), as necessary to obtain pH 4.0
  • Water for Injection (WFI) as solvent.
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Hah, sorry, I should have linked to a few of the threads. I wasn't sure I wanted to drum them up again. 😂
 
clayd said:
Ayyy this cagrisema is some good shit
12.5 tirz Monday, 0.5 cag Thursday, 0.25/0.25 cagrisema Saturday

I feel great, not fatigued, not nauseated, but could just not care less about food this weekend.

Not intending to stay in this stack permanently, just using up some vials, but it is working well right now
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I'm new in here and new to GLP1/peptides so pardon my ignorance but been reading elsewhere that people are worried about the PH of cagri? Do you have that issue or you been ignoring the noise around that, and do you have an opinion or a solution (to basically bring the ph under 4 of the constituted cagri). Have a bunch and being new I'm a bit scared to try. thanks,
 
Fisherman2356 said:
I'm new in here and new to GLP1/peptides so pardon my ignorance but been reading elsewhere that people are worried about the PH of cagri? Do you have that issue or you been ignoring the noise around that, and do you have an opinion or a solution (to basically bring the ph under 4 of the constituted cagri). Have a bunch and being new I'm a bit scared to try. thanks,
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i run it with just bac and have no problems.
just use the vial a little faster
 
Fisherman2356 said:
I'm new in here and new to GLP1/peptides so pardon my ignorance but been reading elsewhere that people are worried about the PH of cagri? Do you have that issue or you been ignoring the noise around that, and do you have an opinion or a solution (to basically bring the ph under 4 of the constituted cagri). Have a bunch and being new I'm a bit scared to try. thanks,
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I did try adding some vinegar to a vial but that killed the peptides and made it cloudy.

You can use bac water and add acetic acid until you get the right pH

I just use bac water
 
went straight to 1mg/1mg of cagrisema with the last dose on friday and i'll be going back down to 0.75 this week. walked around with low key nausea all weekend and into today, almost skipped my tirz dose because i still felt off and still didn't want to eat.

when this vial of cagrisema runs out i'll go back to straight cag for my stack.
 
Super Trips said:
i run it with just bac and have no problems.
just use the vial a little faster
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How fast would you recommend to completing/using one vial (in days), or using and discarding the rest (depending on dosage), and how frequently are yourself using it (weekly)?
 
for me i did a whole 5mg in like 3 weeks or less i was dosing everyday till i felt it then every 3 days or when i needed it i would dose. so i started at .25 and nothing so the next day .25 then i was good for 3 days then i upped it to .5 and im at .75 about to go to 1mg
 
Super Trips said:
for me i did a whole 5mg in like 3 weeks or less i was dosing everyday till i felt it then every 3 days or when i needed it i would dose. so i started at .25 and nothing so the next day .25 then i was good for 3 days then i upped it to .5 and im at .75 about to go to 1mg
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I did .125 yesterday and was sick as fuck. Idk how y'all do it. I had to force myself to eat and then when I did I had to fight to hold it down.
 
chmuse said:
I did .125 yesterday and was sick as fuck. Idk how y'all do it. I had to force myself to eat and then when I did I had to fight to hold it down.
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ya i got a little tired and had the flu like feels but bio boost or lipo-c helps along with vitamins like a D complex. also liquid IV is your friend through this
it will adjust after a few weeks when you get used to it.
 
Super Trips said:
for me i did a whole 5mg in like 3 weeks or less i was dosing everyday till i felt it then every 3 days or when i needed it i would dose. so i started at .25 and nothing so the next day .25 then i was good for 3 days then i upped it to .5 and im at .75 about to go to 1mg
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thanks for your reply. Very helpful. Was of the impression that it can (should) only be taken weekly.
 
Fisherman2356 said:
thanks for your reply. Very helpful. Was of the impression that it can (should) only be taken weekly.
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just feel it out if you take some wait a day or 2 see what happens you can always take more you cant take less so to speak. so like the guy on reddit that did a whole 5mg to the dome start dose prolly not the best moment for him but id rather stack it by .125 or .25 then run 1mg to the gut.
it acts fast but has a 7-8 day half life just remember your build up ratio will be more higher than tirz with 5 day half life.
 
Super Trips said:
just feel it out if you take some wait a day or 2 see what happens you can always take more you cant take less so to speak. so like the guy on reddit that did a whole 5mg to the dome start dose prolly not the best moment for him but id rather stack it by .125 or .25 then run 1mg to the gut.
it acts fast but has a 7-8 day half life just remember your build up ratio will be more higher than tirz with 5 day half life.
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Just did .50 lunch today first time ever. I'm on 5mg Tr weekly also but have stalled in last couple weeks. I'll see what cagri does, and if need be I'll up tirze to 7.5 in hopes of restarting the losing streak. Last two weeks I gained 3lbs after losing 15lbs in prior 12 weeks. Need another 15-20 to reach goal. Will see what happens.
 
Fisherman2356 said:
Just did .50 lunch today first time ever. I'm on 5mg Tr weekly also but have stalled in last couple weeks. Will see what happens.
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for me if i stalled on 5mg of tirz i would up the dose. i was at 25-30mg if tirz before i went to cagri
but hey see if the side effects dont make it so bad you can stretch the triz longer
 
Super Trips said:
for me if i stalled on 5mg of tirz i would up the dose. i was at 25-30mg if tirz before i went to cagri
but hey see if the side effects dont make it so bad you can stretch the triz longer
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For some reason I have zero sides from Tirze, zero sides from Reta, and almost zero from all other peptides I tried, with exception of PT141 which gave me rock hard erections, but that is supposedly a benefit and not a side LOL
 
I added Cagri because I built my hoard around 5mg and I'm prescribed 5mg Mounjaro which my PCP (rightly) is firm on dosage level since glucose is controlled. I added Cagri when cravings returned at an abnormal (not to be confused with healthy normal hunger).

Worked great for me both economically and reaching/maintaining goal.
 
nonyabizznez said:
I added Cagri because I built my hoard around 5mg and I'm prescribed 5mg Mounjaro which my PCP (rightly) is firm on dosage level since glucose is controlled. I added Cagri when cravings returned at an abnormal (not to be confused with healthy normal hunger).

Worked great for me both economically and reaching/maintaining goal.
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Do you mind sharing where you got your cagri from, and are you doing anything to lower its PH, or you're just reconstituting it with BAC water? And how often were you taking cagri dose?
 
Day two and I've slept all day except for when I've woken up and vomited everything I've tried to imbibe, including Gatorade. And I thought it sucked yesterday.

Not sure I'll continue this one. Jesus.
 
chmuse said:
Day two and I've slept all day except for when I've woken up and vomited everything I've tried to imbibe, including Gatorade. And I thought it sucked yesterday.

Not sure I'll continue this one. Jesus.
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Who did you get yours from? OMG... I was going to start on .125. I may pass...

Hope you are feeling better..
 
yelloeyes said:
Who did you get yours from? OMG... I was going to start on .125. I may pass...

Hope you are feeling better..
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Nexa. A few other people got it in the pre-buy and said it was good and had nice overfill so I went for it. I think I just need a smaller dose, I started sema at .125 too.
 
chmuse said:
Nexa. A few other people got it in the pre-buy and said it was good and had nice overfill so I went for it. I think I just need a smaller dose, I started sema at .125 too.
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Same, got it from Nexa also. 5 hours into my first dose 0.5 and zero sides. Maybe? a little less hungry than yesterday at same time of day.
 
Fisherman2356 said:
Same, got it from Nexa also. 5 hours into my first dose 0.5 and zero sides. Maybe? a little less hungry than yesterday at same time of day.
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I always need to start meds at super low doses, I react pretty strong to everything. So I should have known better tbh. I always read about people taking these huge doses and I'm like..... I would die.
DwightTheDelight said:
That's awful, chmuse.

Sorry you feel so bad. Hopefully it passes quickly.
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I'll be fine. We live we learn. I'll wait the 8-9 days then try maybe a third..... I reconstituted it to 6u= .125 so I'll probably try 2u (.04)

But if I discontinue it that'll be fine too. I'm sure I can resell the vials on a b/s/t group and if not I never spend more than I'm willing to lose.
 
Fisherman2356 said:
Do you mind sharing where you got your cagri from, and are you doing anything to lower its PH, or you're just reconstituting it with BAC water? And how often were you taking cagri dose?
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Well I'll tell ya...

First order Arctic (RIP) shipped a vial that was lost over a month in Atlanta's new distribution center. They sent a new vial (free & overnight kuddos) but I wasn't ready to start it yet (vacation). Got back from vacation by then the lost vial arrived so I started that .125 (felt nothing) waited 2 days and another .125 (again nothing) waited 4 days (Tirz day) and did .25 (still nothing) so I tossed the vial (thinking shipping killed it) pinned .3 from a new vial. No response like fatigue others report or pregnant like symptoms (again @chmuse 🤔!) but suppression lasted the entire week! (Yay!)

Since then (Sept) I've tried Cagri from Skye (one vial to make sure my Arctic response was linear) AMO, Nexha and QSC. I use regular BAC (don't test/alter the PH) and filter due to anti rejection medication (inherent low immunity). Currently at 1.25mg Cagri.
 
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chmuse said:
I always need to start meds at super low doses, I react pretty strong to everything. So I should have known better tbh. I always read about people taking these huge doses and I'm like..... I would die.

I'll be fine. We live we learn. I'll wait the 8-9 days then try maybe a third..... I reconstituted it to 6u= .125 so I'll probably try 2u (.04)

But if I discontinue it that'll be fine too. I'm sure I can resell the vials on a b/s/t group and if not I never spend more than I'm willing to lose.
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Surprisingly, I have very bad sides from medications also, but NOTHING from peptide-based ones. I was bedridden for three days couple years ago when I started 10mg Cialis (for prostate health), and lethargically tired and major muscle pain/weakness when started Lipitor. I had to actually stop both. I've been able to start Cialis at 2.5mg with little sides and very happy about it since I have a very bad history of prostate issues in the family. I think I'll keep experimenting with peptides for various benefits since I seem to handle them really well.
 
Fisherman2356 said:
Surprisingly, I have very bad sides from medications also, but NOTHING from peptide-based ones. I was bedridden for three days couple years ago when I started 10mg Cialis (for prostate health), and lethargically tired and major muscle pain/weakness when started Lipitor. I had to actually stop both. I've been able to start Cialis at 2.5mg with little sides and very happy about it since I have a very bad history of prostate issues in the family. I think I'll keep experimenting with peptides for various benefits since I seem to handle them really well.
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If you're going to try Cagri there's no reason not to start at a micro dose and add a bit every few days allowing for the longer half life. I'd suggest not exceeding .3mg your first week and if you get no feelz try .5 your 2nd week. You might be like me and just get a lengthened Tirz effect allowing you to still pin Tirz once per week and not up your dose or frequency. I pin both the same day. CagriSema is being studied concurrent so I wanted to mirror that with a potentially better combo since Tirz is superior to Sema in many regards.
 
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