Let's talk GLP1's downfall - MUSCLE LOSS

raw_oyster_eater said:
its really impossible to burn fat and gain muscle at the same time or bodybuilders would have figured it out. bodybuilders are either in gain muscle and fat mode or reduce muscle and fat mode.

you can't change the laws of physics captain.
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People often do burn fat and gain muscle at the same time. Whether you can do so depends on the time of shape you're in. People regularly did so while on the TV show the Biggest Loser. Of course, the folks on the show had professional coaches and didn't have any other employment at the time. If you have gone to the gym a few times per week for lifting, losing fat while gaining muscle will be quite hard. If, on the other hand, you've been a couch potato, it becomes quite possible to gain muscle while losing weight. Also, if you start taking steroids (something I don't recommend) while you're losing weight, your ability to lose weight while gaining muscle goes up.

What raw-oyster-eater wrote generally does apply to body builders. My understanding (and I'm not a body builder) is that body builders are always either increasing their weight or reducing their weight. They have to frequently reduce weight so they don't get too fat. While reducing, they exercise to maintain muscle. While gaining weight, muscle size will increase far more with exercise than if a person was exercising while in a calorie deficit or while eating only enough calories to make up what one burns during the day.
 
tul9033 said:
Older GLP-1 patients losing so much muscle mass they cannot gain back and will no longer be able to support their own body weight as they age.
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Oh please. They could always gain the muscle back, just like they do after the trauma of total knee replacement. These healthcare podcasters just need to say something to get attention.

According to Dr. Seed (the peptide guru who is very buff for his age), there is nothing about GLP-1s that makes us lose muscle more than just the effects of dieting. And we have known for 100+ years about muscle loss from dieting.

Dr. Seed is all about cell signaling (to the point he sounds like George in Seinfeld: “Cause it's signals, Jerry, it's signals!”). He says increasing protein intake and doing strength training helps signal to the body to eat fat, not muscle. And 80+ year olds can easily do resistance training:

 
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Calm Logic said:
Oh please. They could always gain the muscle back, just like they do after the trauma of total knee replacement. These healthcare podcasters just need to say something to get attention.

According to Dr. Seed (the peptide guru who is very buff for his age), there is nothing about GLP-1s that makes us lose muscle more than just the effects of dieting. And we have known for 100+ years about muscle loss from dieting.

Dr. Seed is all about cell signaling (to the point he sounds like George in Seinfeld: “Cause it's signals, Jerry, it's signals!”). He says increasing protein intake and doing strength training helps signal to the body to eat fat, not muscle. And 80+ year olds can easily do resistance training:

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There’s been some discussion about glucagon itself leading to lower free amino acids. Folks speculate it would make it harder to gain muscle and raise protein requirements. But we don’t really know.
 
Lost 205 lbs in 14 months. I’m sure I lost some muscle but don’t give a damn. I’m skinny AF. I look great. My bloodwork is amazing. I’m successfully maintaining my lowest weight. Benefits outweigh any muscle loss negatives. If I wanted slow and steady weightloss I would have spent less money and gone to WW to lose a few lbs a month
 
Calm Logic said:
Oh please. They could always gain the muscle back, just like they do after the trauma of total knee replacement. These healthcare podcasters just need to say something to get attention.

According to Dr. Seed (the peptide guru who is very buff for his age), there is nothing about GLP-1s that makes us lose muscle more than just the effects of dieting. And we have known for 100+ years about muscle loss from dieting.

Dr. Seed is all about cell signaling (to the point he sounds like George in Seinfeld: “Cause it's signals, Jerry, it's signals!”). He says increasing protein intake and doing strength training helps signal to the body to eat fat, not muscle. And 80+ year olds can easily do resistance training:

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It's cause and effect. Not that the GLP-1's are directly responsible for muscle loss other than rapid weight loss and the associated muscle loss.
 
rkl123 said:
There’s been some discussion about glucagon itself leading to lower free amino acids. Folks speculate it would make it harder to gain muscle and raise protein requirements. But we don’t really know.
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And there's speculation that the GLP-1s help preserve muscle during weight loss, such as by reducing inflammation and insulin resistance.
 
tul9033 said:
It's cause and effect. Not that the GLP-1's are directly responsible for muscle loss other than rapid weight loss and the associated muscle loss.
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In that case, I say we start having virtual pizza parties 😀

I do wonder how internalized fat stigma may contribute to people losing weight too fast (by upping the dose to accelerate reaching an arbitrary/cultural standard). But the fear of sagging skin slows me down more than anything, more so than potential muscle loss.
 
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Calm Logic said:
In that case, I say we start having virtual pizza parties 😀

I do wonder how internalized fat stigma may contribute to people losing weight too fast (by upping the dose to accelerate reaching an arbitrary/cultural standard). But the fear of sagging skin slows me down more than anything, more so than potential muscle loss.
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Oh for sure, obesity is as much of a mental illness as anything.
Luckily, I've never really struggled with my weight. I mainly got into this for my family members. I did and do take low doses of Tirz mainly for the inflammation effects. I was about 10-15 #'s over my goal weight last year and got up to 3 mg of Tirz. It was shocking how I had to force myself to eat. Others in my family have lost over 40 #'s and the bat wing arms are real! I do notice the loss of muscle mass in the high # losers.
 
"Patients were able to lose fat mass with only a minimal decline in muscle mass":

www.medicalnewstoday.com

Weight loss: Study finds keys to minimize muscle loss from GLP-1 drugs

People taking GLP-1 drugs can decrease fat mass while minimizing muscle loss with a few key strategies that include proper supervision, and a protein-rich diet, the results of a new study suggest.
www.medicalnewstoday.com www.medicalnewstoday.com
Women lost an average of 10.8 kg of fat mass while only losing 1.4 pounds (0.63 kg) of muscle.

Men experienced a fat mass reduction of 25 pounds (12 kg), with a minimal muscle loss of just 2.4 pounds (1 kg)
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Sticking to the medication, eating enough protein, and having regular check-ups seemed to lead to better results...

"The main things patients can do is ensure adequate protein intake and exercise. Resistance-type exercises are helpful in maintaining and possibly even building muscle"
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Just get on test + tren and deca. Tren will help with nutrition partition, deca will bulk you up and regain any lost muscle mass. For this reason alone, we should be on test and GLP1s at same time to avoid as much muscle loss we can save.

Or another way is cut down first, as much weight as u can, then after get on the gear and start building muscle again. Say you gained 15kgs of muscle mass over a 12 week cycle.

Naturally once you stop test you will lose some muscle gains. From that 15kgs gained you might lose 5kgs.

So you will still be ahead 10kgs.

Also keep in mind muscle eats glucose so in theory after your cycle your blood sugar should be lower than before and it will help with keeping fat gain to a minimum.
 
tul9033 said:
So you've lost an enormous amount of weight. Have you noticed how much muscle mass you've lost?
Arguably the biggest drawback to GLP-1's is the loss of muscle mass. Many in the healthcare industry are espousing an early death due to GLP-1's rapid weight loss going hand in hand with rapid muscle loss. Older GLP-1 patients losing so much muscle mass they cannot gain back and will no longer be able to support their own body weight as they age.
Let's talk about gaining this muscle mass back. We have some great tools at our disposal: CJC-1295, Ipamorelin, Tesamorelin, GH, ABS.
What are you trying and what have been the results?
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Started using compound sema in Jan 2023. Loss 30 pounds over 10 months. Already was a cardio head but made it a point to start lifting because I could tell I was losing strength at 49. I didn't go beyond 1.0 mg. After my weight stalled, I thought maybe this is where my body wants to be so I stayed in maintenance for a year and spreading dosing every 10-14 days. 5 weeks ago I switched to tirz and now losing again. My goal is to lose another 20 pounds. I see the benefit of losing slow as I don't want to sacrifice losing too much muscle. At 51, in perimenoupase this is no joke. All the years of yo yo dieting created a lot of havoc on the body.
 
Lullabytreehugger said:
Just get on test + tren and deca. Tren will help with nutrition partition, deca will bulk you up and regain any lost muscle mass. For this reason alone, we should be on test and GLP1s at same time to avoid as much muscle loss we can save.

Or another way is cut down first, as much weight as u can, then after get on the gear and start building muscle again. Say you gained 15kgs of muscle mass over a 12 week cycle.

Naturally once you stop test you will lose some muscle gains. From that 15kgs gained you might lose 5kgs.

So you will still be ahead 10kgs.

Also keep in mind muscle eats glucose so in theory after your cycle your blood sugar should be lower than before and it will help with keeping fat gain to a minimum.
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You're not putting on 15kg of muscle on a 12 week cycle. Actual retained muscle mass gains on cycle is much closer to 1lb/week, and that's assuming dialed in training, diet, and recovery. 10kg retained would be elite genetics on very high doses levels of gains.

Test at TRT levels is extremely anti-catabolic by itself. You don't need to run a cycle while losing weight to retain muscle, and running more than TRT levels of AAS while overweight is a recipe for all sorts of negative health impacts.
 
Fava beans as a great source of muscle-building aminos and peptides:

www.foodingredientsfirst.com

Plant-based peptides from fava beans to shake up muscle health segment

08 Feb 2023 --- Extracting bioactive peptides from fava beans using precision tech as a “game-changing” muscle health solution, Nuritas and Maastricht University have published a clinical trial demonstrating the effectiveness of the company’s plant-based bioactive peptide solution, PeptiStrong.
www.foodingredientsfirst.com www.foodingredientsfirst.com

Extracting bioactive peptides from fava beans using precision tech as a “game-changing” muscle health solution, Nuritas and Maastricht University have published a clinical trial demonstrating the effectiveness of the company’s plant-based bioactive peptide solution, PeptiStrong.

The study, published in the Journal of Nutrition, shows that the bioactive ingredient performs better than traditional animal proteins, specifically milk protein, in muscle conditioning. Nuritas’ PeptiStrong increases muscle synthesis recovery following immobilization.


Faba Bean: An Untapped Source of Quality Plant Proteins and Bioactives - PMC

Faba beans are emerging as sustainable quality plant protein sources, with the potential to help meet the growing global demand for more nutritious and healthy foods. The faba bean, in addition to its high protein content and well-balanced amino ...
pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Faba beans are emerging as sustainable quality plant protein sources, with the potential to help meet the growing global demand for more nutritious and healthy foods. The faba bean, in addition to its high protein content and well-balanced amino acid profile, contains bioactive constituents with health-enhancing properties, including bioactive peptides, phenolic compounds, GABA, and L-DOPA. Faba bean peptides released after gastrointestinal digestion have shown antioxidant, antidiabetic, antihypertensive, cholesterol-lowering, and anti-inflammatory effects, indicating a strong potential for this legume crop to be used as a functional food to help face the increasing incidences of non-communicable diseases.
 
Also known as "haba" beans in the Mexican food section of Walmart. Lots of online Mexican recipes for fava bean soup (sopa de habas).
 
An inevitable/periodic slowdown in weight loss is looking better every day (though tirz was not different than regular weight loss for percentage of muscle loss):

https://dom-pubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/dom.16275

Of the body weight lost, approximately 75% was fat mass and 25% was lean mass for both tirzepatide and placebo. These proportions remained consistent across most subgroup analyses.
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For skin health during weight loss, this article recommends collagen supplements (15 g/day) and avoiding sun damage, staying hydrated, avoiding too much sugar or fat, sufficient amounts of copper and zinc, etc:


When adipose tissue is lost, collagen synthesis generally decreases, as the process of fat loss often leads to a reduction in the production of extracellular matrix components like collagen, particularly collagen type VI, which is prevalent in adipose tissue.
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Lifestyle changes that promote gradual weight loss tend to preserve skin integrity better, albeit with less dramatic weight reduction outcomes. Manzoni et al. found that adequate hydration and a balanced diet rich in antioxidants, vitamins, and trace elements can support collagen synthesis and mitigate oxidative stress, which accelerates skin aging [30]. For instance, a review by Cao et al. reported that water promotes dermal hydration and elasticity, while copper and zinc aid in collagen stabilization and repair [31]. Nutrients such as iron and copper are vital for the synthesis of collagen and the overall health of skin and connective tissue. Iron deficiency, common post-bariatric surgery, may result in pallor, glossitis, and brittle nails, while copper deficiency can impair wound healing and lead to depigmentation and fragile hair [30].

In contrast, poor dietary habits can exacerbate skin aging. High-fat or high-sugar diets contribute to chronic inflammation and promote advanced glycation end-product (AGE) formation, which weaken collagen networks [31]. AGEs damage collagen and elastin, the proteins essential for maintaining skin firmness and elasticity. Addressing these dietary factors can significantly augment skin health during weight loss, making gradual, nutrition-focused lifestyle changes a cornerstone of both metabolic and dermatological well-being.
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Collagen peptide supplementation is a potential solution to improve skin’s elasticity and wrinkled appearance while aiding fat reduction, as shown by Park, et al., who confirmed 15 grams per day of collagen supplementation can reduce body fat in adults age 50 and up [41]. Appropriate collagen supplementation is a strategy for maintaining skin health and weight loss during aging, while decreased collagen amounts may have the opposite effect.
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Patient education on optimal skincare, including hydration, sun protection, and collagen-supportive nutrition, can help mitigate adverse dermatologic effects.
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An overgeneralization about sema, but interesting about the importance of trying to hit multiple receptors:

link.springer.com

New drugs for the treatment of obesity: do we need approaches to preserve muscle mass? - Reviews in Endocrine and Metabolic Disorders

The development of drugs targeting Nutrient Stimulated Hormone receptors has ushered in a dramatic change in our approach to weight management because of their ability to achieve weight losses of 10%, 20%, even 30% in significant numbers of patients. Additionally, disease modifying properties of...
link.springer.com link.springer.com
Of weight lost with semaglutide, approximately 45% is from lean mass, while with tirzepatide, it is 25%. Going forward, combining another NuSH [Nutrient-Stimulated Hormone] such as glucagon or amylin with the GLP-1 receptor agonists may lessen loss of lean mass.
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Also:

In clinical trials of pharmacotherapy for obesity, fat mass and lean mass reductions have been generally 3/4th and 1/4th of the total weight loss, respectively, although greater than 30 % reductions in lean mass have been observed in some trial of liraglutide [23] and semaglutide [14].

Significant weight loss that was almost entirely from fat mass loss with preservation of lean mass was observed only with two drug therapies – recombinant leptin [24] and bimagrubab [25] – in clinical trials.

A study that compared semaglutide and tirzepatide against a placebo in individuals with type 2 diabetes found that lean mass decreased by about 15 % or less of the total weight loss in all groups. Similarly, other research does not indicate significant lean mass loss associated with GLP-1RA treatment [26].

Maintenance of muscle mass during weight loss is vital given the important role that muscles play in metabolic health and the overall quality of life [27].
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If you loose weight rapidly (2lb/week or more) you'll loose muscle mass, not necessary b/c of the GLP 1 but because of loosing weight and not changing habits. At 50, I lost 1lb per week on triz this past year and have gained muscle. ONLY because I strength trained 3 x per week. When I started I found Dr Tyna and listened to her GLP's done right podcast series. Non-negotiable is Strength/Resistance Training (at any age)!
 
The fear of losing muscle is present when people don't know jack shit about muscle retention in a cut (you're esentially in a huge deficit so the body is catabolic) and people who mindlessy dont watch what they eat (some people here ate like 10-15g of protein daily etc) No wonder muscle loss occurs.
 
nhooydz said:
The fear of losing muscle is present when people don't know jack shit about muscle retention in a cut (you're esentially in a huge deficit so the body is catabolic) and people who mindlessy dont watch what they eat (some people here ate like 10-15g of protein daily etc) No wonder muscle loss occurs.
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I have tracked my caloric intake daily by listing all items I ate in a spreadsheet. I then setup a formula to determine daily deficit and weekly average deficit. Additionally I track my steps and protein intake daily. I target 120 grams of protein a day and have consistently hit that goal.
I monitor, but do not record, my daily fiber, good fats, and water as well.
It is not easy to hit the caloric deficit while maintaining other macros. The protein bars and shakes help.
 
That reminds me: When I last tried the Weight Watchers app, eggs (like hardboiled eggs for a snack) had no points, just like fruits and veggies.
 
tul9033 said:
So you've lost an enormous amount of weight. Have you noticed how much muscle mass you've lost?
Arguably the biggest drawback to GLP-1's is the loss of muscle mass. Many in the healthcare industry are espousing an early death due to GLP-1's rapid weight loss going hand in hand with rapid muscle loss. Older GLP-1 patients losing so much muscle mass they cannot gain back and will no longer be able to support their own body weight as they age.
Let's talk about gaining this muscle mass back. We have some great tools at our disposal: CJC-1295, Ipamorelin, Tesamorelin, GH, ABS.
What are you trying and what have been the results?
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Primobolan 🍀🧪
 
🧬STERNO🧬 said:
Primobolan 🍀🧪
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I think Primo would make people gain weight. Maybe from hunger, muscle gains or water retention, and a LOT of people only care about the numbers on the scale. Anavar would be better at just preserving muscle and has fewer side effects, but I’ve been having trouble finding it. It also isn’t a peptide though. lol. I had an India source but he’s been slipping lately.

As I learn more about these peps, and I see people on here talking about random Peptides, a thought that comes to my mind is “HGH does that.” I’ve wasted a lot of money on peptides that I should have just spent on GH. Like AOD, Ipamorelin, Sermorelin, GHK, BPC-157, TB-500, 5-Amino-1-MQ, ARA-290, etc. All were money down the drain and now I’m stuck with partial kits of many.

Adding 2-4iu of HGH has insane benefits for healing, skin elasticity, muscle growth, weight loss support, sleep, cognitive health; and the list goes on.

Aside from the GLP-1s, I’ve only had real results with AICAR, Glutathione and HGH. I’m convinced many of peptides are proverbial “Snake Oil.”

Then there is the mental and physical side of this. If we can be frank, something made each one of us overweight. That something usually was not resistance training. If you don’t lift some weights or another form of resistance training you will not experience Hypertrophy, and you lose muscle.
 
How long do you guys typically cycle on HGH?

My IGF-1 is 192, so is slightly above average to start (for a 48-year-old).

The median IGF-1 of a 20-year-old male:

Google Gemini said:
The median IGF-1 level for a 20-year-old male would likely fall in the range of 230-280 ng/mL.
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Peptoidian said:
My IGF-1 is 285, which is in-range for a guy in his 20s (I'm 58.) My doctor is supportive and impressed with the results.
Click to expand...
 
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