Nexaph testing

[Cain_SPC]

I see @Cain_SPC has decided to ignore me and my specific questions which I find deeply disappointing as someone who has defend them on this forum in the past, and who just last week released $1,000 dollars worth of positive 3rd party test results to the community on three different forums for free:

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I also publicly endorsed their services in the FAQ I wrote that accompanied those results

FAQ for Noteablequoteables’s Test Results

FAQ for Noteablequoteables’s Peptide Tests Link To Results Why did you use Vanguard for your testing? Did they pay you to promote them? I was not paid to promote Vanguard and I was not offered any discounts (although I would have appreciated one). The #1 reason I chose Vanguard was cost. Onc...

docs.google.com

He probably didn't know this because I'm not a schill and do not seek money or favors for my recommendations.

As a customer I actually do deserve answers to my questions, and if Cain isn't interested in providing them I can no longer in good faith recommend anyone use him, even as a backup option.

Honestly, I'm not trying to ignore your questions. I'm just trying to think of a way to answer them without the troll brigade using every single one of my words against me. With that being said, here we go:

The manufacturer/finisher we used in the past that had a failed sterility test had shut down and hasn't been used for our products since July. Since end of July early August we have been finishing in a new facility with smaller capacity. The issue of degradation from a couple of the previous batches have been addressed and hopefully wont happen in the future. Because of our uptick in demand, we tried new freeze drying curves to help with the production time. For some products this was a success while other products its better to do a slow and steady finish for them. If anyone is familiar with the freeze drying process, they can tell you it can take anywhere from 24-40 hours to finish a batch. From thermal treatment (4-8 hours), primary drying (16-24 hours), to secondary drying (4-8 hours). The excipients used in each formula can also affect timing and curve of the freeze drying process. With that being said:

Can i promise there wont be anymore issues in the future? No.
Can i promise that we will stand by our products and ensure that customers get what they paid for? Yes.

All in all we strive to provide our customers with quality products and will stand by them as we have shown in the past and will continue to do so in the future. I know the answers maybe are not what you are looking for specifically, but i hope to at least have answered some of your concerns.

 

[nccane]

I've stated multiple times that our production capacity isn't huge and that we are currently in the process of expanding. This is the reason most of the items currently are pre orders. There is a difference between pre orders and group buys. When the product is scheduled to be produced, we open up the pre orders to a certain amount of kits that are being produced, once they run out they run out. I think you have seen the uptick in demand in our products and can understand why we are doing this model instead currently. I don't see this as an issue because we back our products anyways, so if any issues do arise we address them and re ship them.

No need to get defensive with the "multiple times" comment. I can't keep up with the 30 odd communities I'm apart of. Thanks for the response.

 

[noteablequotable]

Honestly, I'm not trying to ignore your questions. I'm just trying to think of a way to answer them without the troll brigade using every single one of my words against me.

Please answer based on the needs of your current and potential customers.

The manufacturer/finisher we used in the past that had a failed sterility test had shut down and hasn't been used for our products since July. Since end of July early August we have been finishing in a new facility with smaller capacity.

Is there any documentation you can share with us that will confirm this?

The issue of degradation from a couple of the previous batches have been addressed and hopefully wont happen in the future. Because of our uptick in demand, we tried new freeze drying curves to help with the production time. For some products this was a success while other products its better to do a slow and steady finish for them. If anyone is familiar with the freeze drying process, they can tell you it can take anywhere from 24-40 hours to finish a batch. From thermal treatment (4-8 hours), primary drying (16-24 hours), to secondary drying (4-8 hours). The excipients used in each formula can also affect timing and curve of the freeze drying process.

I appreciate your generally polite response in the face of so much pressure.

Is there any documentation you can provide us to confirm this too?

I am skeptical of your claim that histidine was never used with GLP-1s given multiple conversations that mention it and Jano's own comments, but even if I am willing to accept that, your response about how you made changes to your lyophilization process is still concerning and seems to validate my thoughts about your general judgement.

You made a change to "help with the production time", but did absolutely no QA to evaluate how that change would ultimately impact the safety of quality of your products. You also didn't notify your customers so they could alert you to any potential issues or choose to opt out of using the new peptides until you received more feedback about them.

Can i promise there wont be anymore issues in the future? No.

That's not very heartening. I would expect you to walk away from this experience with some specific thoughts about how you can better manage product changes, and a plan to implement new risk controls to prevent outcomes like this in the future.

 

[hexagonal]

I think that last bit is key. It's not even necessarily promising there will be no issues in the future - but when you have a major issue, part of the post mortem of that issue should be figuring out what processes you can put in place to prevent that issue from occurring again.

Look into the "Five Why's" method and figure out what the root cause of the issue was, and figure out every step along the way that went wrong allowing that root cause to carry through to the end product. Then implement procedures and business practices that resolve the root cause and holes in the existing process that let the issue through.

Do this every time you have a major issue. Fix these holes every time once occurs. You still won't be able to promise there will be no more issues, but you will be able to say that you have put safeguards in place to prevent the *same* issue from happening again.

 

[noteablequotable]

I think that last bit is key. It's not even necessarily promising there will be no issues in the future - but when you have a major issue, part of the post mortem of that issue should be figuring out what processes you can put in place to prevent that issue from occurring again.

Look into the "Five Why's" method and figure out what the root cause of the issue was, and figure out every step along the way that went wrong allowing that root cause to carry through to the end product. Then implement procedures and business practices that resolve the root cause and holes in the existing process that let the issue through.

Do this every time you have a major issue. Fix these holes every time once occurs. You still won't be able to promise there will be no more issues, but you will be able to say that you have put safeguards in place to prevent the *same* issue from happening again.

And this is exactly why I made my (admittedly quite harsh) comments about Cain not being a good fit for this business. There are no manuals for this, but you don't need a manual or advanced degree to understand basic root cause analysis, risk controls, and good customer communication, you need common sense.

 

[brentm]

And this is exactly why I made my (admittedly quite harsh) comments about Cain not being a good fit for this business. There are no manuals for this, but you don't need a manual or advanced degree to understand basic root cause analysis, risk controls, and good customer communication, you need common sense.

No offense intended by this message.

But I've never had good luck telling people how to run their business. If it's more lip service you want, he could say anything in this thread... It doesn't really matter what he says.

And unfortunately, we are not judged by our intentions. He'll either make it or he won't. I'm not sure how many mulligans he's allowed on this course. I suppose if someone is injured that might do it.

But I'm sure he realizes his error rate is higher than average. Asking for more lip service is just that... just words. And talk is cheap.

 

[noteablequotable]

No offense intended by this message.

But I've never had good luck telling people how to run their business. If it's more lip service you want, he could say anything in this thread... It doesn't really matter what he says.

...
Asking for more lip service is just that... just words. And talk is cheap.

I don't expect Cain to respond to those specific comments because he can't. Whatever he did, he went about things the wrong way and there is no disputing that.

I said it for him to hear it and (hopefully) think carefully about how he is managing risk when it comes to his products and customer health. If something like this happens again, he can't say that no one warned him, and neither can anyone else who reads it and continues to buy from him.

Cain is making changes to his formulation process to make things go faster without fully examining the risks associated with those changes.

Hopefully he will stop because that's not safe, but if he doesn't at least it's out in the open now

 

[DevynL90]

I think a big glitch is that he said here in this thread that he didn't use histidine in RETA. Only to TESA.

But then in this screen he said he used histamine in RETA.

P

Post in thread 'Nexaph testing'

Nov 26, 2024

This message says you used histidine in Reta…
View attachment 3914

a larger snip of the convo….

• PopTart

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Which is it?

@Cain_SPC am i blind or is this like the 3rd time now you've skipped over this specific screenshot of you stating that you used histamine in reta? how do you reconcile this screenshot with what you stated in this very forum earlier yesterday (quoted for your convenience below)?

This is false, Jano never advised against giving it to customers. He said he would advise me against using it in formulations just because they wont be able to test it right as its not a common excipient they are used to testing. That is the reason why i had to send them a sample of the histidine so they can test it properly against their own tests.

Either way, histidine was never used with GLP's. It is used with Tesamorelin and will continue to be used with that as we have found Tesamorelin is most stable with histidine as its buffer along with mannitol and sucrose.

why come on this forum and say up and down that you never used histidine with glp1's when you by your own words did? please stop focusing on lecturing us all on why it needed to be done because my new smaller factory and yada yada yada and just explain how these two things are not contradictory somehow?

 

[Cain_SPC]

@Cain_SPC am i blind or is this like the 3rd time now you've skipped over this specific screenshot of you stating that you used histamine in reta? how do you reconcile this screenshot with what you stated in this very forum earlier yesterday (quoted for your convenience below)?


why come on this forum and say up and down that you never used histidine with glp1's when you by your own words did? please stop focusing on lecturing us all on why it needed to be done because my new smaller factory and yada yada yada and just explain how these two things are not contradictory somehow?

Ive already answered this here, ill quote it again:

For the people asking about the Reta histidine:

Yes i assumed at first that it had histidine since when Jano emailed me stating there is an issue with the testing and an unknown filler had been used, i assumed it was histidine since the other samples that were sent in at the same time did have it. This is why i sent in a sample of the histidine to be tested against it. After confirmation from Jano that histidine was not present in the Reta, we went ahead and re produced the batch and sent it out to everyone.

 

[Cain_SPC]

I don't expect Cain to respond to those specific comments because he can't. Whatever he did, he went about things the wrong way and there is no disputing that.

I said it for him to hear it and (hopefully) think carefully about how he is managing risk when it comes to his products and customer health. If something like this happens again, he can't say that no one warned him, and neither can anyone else who reads it and continues to buy from him.

Cain is making changes to his formulation process to make things go faster without fully examining the risks associated with those changes.

Hopefully he will stop because that's not safe, but if he doesn't at least it's out in the open now

This is why i tell people to join my community telegram and not just take what people say on this forum at face value. Are we going to ignore the fact that we have had numerous tests after that Reta batch that all came back good and above standards? For all that aren't in the telegram community room, ill attach all the tests that we have had for our products since then.

 

[Cain_SPC]

Some more testing.

 

[Cain_SPC]

And some more

 

[GimmeABreak]

I think Cain's transparency is giving us a view to "how the sausage is made".

I am currently reviewing hundreds of test results posted on a popular peptide testing site. EVERY vendor has bad batches that either fail purity or mass, every single vendor. None of them are getting this level of scrutiny, because they would not provide the level of response and interaction that we are getting from Cain. From many, you would have a hard time getting replacement vials for a failed test. "You sent to Trust Pointe? We only accept results from Jano." I have seen this actual response from one of the CN vendors. Nexaph is sending replacements automatically.

This is the gray market and the inputs required (raws, filler, vials, stoppers, crimps) all introduce risks to the final product.

As customers the best thing we can do is test and try to hold vendors accountable for issues with quality. Plus, publicly call them out when they don't address the issue.

 

[DevynL90]

Ive already answered this here, ill quote it again:

For the people asking about the Reta histidine:

Yes i assumed at first that it had histidine since when Jano emailed me stating there is an issue with the testing and an unknown filler had been used, i assumed it was histidine since the other samples that were sent in at the same time did have it. This is why i sent in a sample of the histidine to be tested against it. After confirmation from Jano that histidine was not present in the Reta, we went ahead and re produced the batch and sent it out to everyone.

with all due respect that's still not answering the question like at all. you're talking about sending in histidine to be tested AGAINST when jano called out your reta test. the implication here is that you're not sure what could be this unknown filler that jano is questioning you about, let me send in some histadine so you can test against it so we can rule that out (in which case you say it was ruled out and that it was due to freeze drying degradation related problems).

then in your telegram screenshot, you're very openly admitting to using/trying histadine.

do you not see how these two things are in a state of conflict? does someone else control your Cain @ telegram account besides you or something? how do you explain those comments you made in your very own telegram channel.

 

[noteablequotable]

I am currently reviewing hundreds of test results posted on a popular peptide testing site. EVERY vendor has bad batches that either fail purity or mass, every single vendor. None of them are getting this level of scrutiny, because they would not provide the level of response and interaction that we are getting from Cain. From many, you would have a hard time getting replacement vials for a failed test. "You sent to Trust Pointe? We only accept results from Jano." I have seen this actual response from one of the CN vendors. Nexaph is sending replacements automatically.

Just so we're clear about what my specific concerns are, I'm not all that worried about the fact that Nexaph has a bad batch. I am worried about the how and why behind that result.

with all due respect that's still not answering the question like at all. you're talking about sending in histidine to be tested AGAINST when jano called out your reta test. the implication here is that you're not sure what could be this unknown filler that jano is questioning you about, let me send in some histadine so you can test against it so we can rule that out (in which case you say it was ruled out and that it was due to freeze drying degradation related problems).

We're not going to get a better answer to this then we've already gotten from him, and at the end of the day it doesn't change much. Whether it was histidine or a new lyophilization process, he skipped QA.

 

[DevynL90]

Just so we're clear about what my specific concerns are, I'm not all that worried about the fact that Nexaph has a bad batch. I am worried about the how and why behind that result.



We're not going to get a better answer to this then we've already gotten from him, and at the end of the day it doesn't change much. Whether it was histidine or a new lyophilization process, he skipped QA.

i'm not hopeful we'll get an answer either, but there's an impression being held by some folks (more so on the other forum) that cain has came here hat in hand and addressed our concerns when in reality he keeps sidestepping this key point and instead planting his flag on other, less important fields of battle. so i'm happy to keep hammering it home and rephrasing until he gives a straight up response.

i also love how spamming a bunch of future vendor coa's is somehow relevant to this discussion, like at all, lmao. come on guys, forget about that one singular issue that i've yet to address! look at all these OTHER times where it tested good!

 

[nccane]

I think Cain's transparency is giving us a view to "how the sausage is made".

I am currently reviewing hundreds of test results posted on a popular peptide testing site. EVERY vendor has bad batches that either fail purity or mass, every single vendor. None of them are getting this level of scrutiny, because they would not provide the level of response and interaction that we are getting from Cain. From many, you would have a hard time getting replacement vials for a failed test. "You sent to Trust Pointe? We only accept results from Jano." I have seen this actual response from one of the CN vendors. Nexaph is sending replacements automatically.

This is the gray market and the inputs required (raws, filler, vials, stoppers, crimps) all introduce risks to the final product.

As customers the best thing we can do is test and try to hold vendors accountable for issues with quality. Plus, publicly call them out when they don't address the issue.

To be fair, until recently, that was Cains response as well when a Tirz came back under purity. It was even in his 99% gurantee disclaimer.

I think he just recently started utilizing trustpointe with the 3rd party tests.

With that said, your point stands. They all fail.

Cains history is why people give him more shit than everyone else. Cain knows that and he's trying to do everything he can to deliver to his customers to rid himself of the early days. I understand that, most should. I give cain business and I also question him when necessary (albeit no where near the witch hunt that occurs on peppys and here)

I have a simple rule for nexaph (as I do all vendors). I won't use it until I see a vendor test and a 3rd party one i was involved in. It's people using vials willy nilly that get them in trouble....like with the nexaph reta and the sry t60/t45

 

[GimmeABreak]

Just so we're clear about what my specific concerns are, I'm not all that worried about the fact that Nexaph has a bad batch. I am worried about the how and why behind that result.

I understand that and I think the response that we received is probably all that we are going to get. I also think this is a ton more info than most CN providers would share. What would Tracy say? My guess is there would be crickets.

 

[noteablequotable]

I understand that and I think the response that we received is probably all that we are going to get. I also think this is a ton more info than most CN providers would share. What would Tracy say? My guess is there would be crickets.

I don't buy from QSC for that very reason and probably never will despite how popular they are

You get the treatment you accept, and if we constantly overlook the same problems they'll keep coming up.

 

[Nikki nik]

Sorry, but what the fuck is wrong with this dude? Running a profitable peptide business isn't rocket science. You buy product from a reputable manufacturer or distributor, pay for some tests to confirm quantity (and where relevant sterility), then sell for cost + profit to people with some nice stickers on it.

That's the ENTIRE business model.

There's no need to do all of this weird shit. Cain appears to be an actual pathological liar

Anyway, someone should probably let the folks on the other forum know. Probably not me since I think the gator may be mad at me. @DwightTheDelight, @milos, @Bacchus, you all are in good standing. Any one of you want to take one for the team?



Yeah but he still tried it which is a problem on its own.

I will never order from Nexaph again